Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Janoah
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:26 pm
Location: Israel
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Janoah »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:19 pm or end the discussion.
end. Because I see that you are not ready to see the obvious.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:29 am ...you are still falling on the critical terms essential for a "contract" [or whatever names it is called], i.e. offer and acceptance.
That's a very, very minimal definition of what you call "contract." If you stopped there, I would have no issue with you. But if you understand "contract" the way it is normally used, then I think it's evident you're just wrong about that. You'll have to take your pick.
I am not using the term 'contract' in the normal sense which is usually associated with political Laws and resolved within a court of Law.

In this case, I am using the term contract within the Divine perspective and will be dealt with with the Court of God.
Over and over again, the Bible outlines how that salvation is an act of God, and not contingent on some deal made by human actions. That's galling to our pride; but it's the truth.
Are you implying that if one were to evilly and violently tortured and killed millions or billions of humans, God will still offer him salvation to heaven with eternal life regardless of such acts?
If one genuinely repented and accepted God's offer of salvation, you mean? Of if one just pretended to?

The Apostle Paul was complicit in the murder of Christians. He rounded them up and tried to force them to blaspheme. He dragged them off to jail. He was the special comissioner of persecuting the people of God. God forgave him, and made him a new man.

There is no sin that God cannot forgive. But there is no fooling God: "Do not be deceived; God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap." (Gal. 6:7)

Justice is with God. There will be no shuffling of the deck when we meet Him.
When Paul murdered Christians, he had not entered into a contract [covenant] with God/Jesus yet.
But if he had murdered Christians [with evilly and violently intents] after entering into a contract with God/Jesus, do you think God will forgive him?

Note the point is, if people & Christians are not assured God will keep his promise of eternal life in heaven and other good things, even if they have complied fully [no sins at all] with the words of Jesus in the Gospel, most people will not take that gamble in the face of uncertainty to salvation.
It is only with the concept and sense of contract [covenant] that Christians will have the minimal guarantee that God [of perfect morality and benevolent] will keep his promise if one do not sin in the extreme sense.

If they have to bear with uncertainty, they might as well be Muslims where the 'contract' [covenant -mithaq] is very explicit in the Quran, and they are 100% assured of going to paradise with eternal life and more so with a bonus of 72 virgins, and even with permission they can kill non-Muslims upon certain vague conditions.

If Christianity do not leverage on the concept of contract [covenant ], they will surely lose the competitive advantage to Islam as obviously reflected on paper, in theory and in principles.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Janoah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:16 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:33 am
Fortunately, the critical contractual term all Christians are bound to is that they MUST love all and even their enemies. Therefore Christianity is inherent a pacifist religion, regardless of whether Christians behave well-manneredly or badly.

Christ cursed the fig tree that has not reached the fertility period, in which he did not find fruit, and it withered with grief.
Not too pacifist in my opinion.
It seems that Christians followed this covenant, and exterminating heretics and unbelievers with fire and sword, of course, out of love.

But the philosophical aspect seems to be more principled, the Christian god can be touched, that is, the Christian god is material.
But yet Aristotle proved that the One is - immaterial.

Is it good to love idols?
Btw, my personal view is God is an illusion, an impossibility and cannot be real. So I am not dealing with any philosophical issues of substance and reality in this case.

In this case, I am presenting from the Christians' perspective [not mine] that it would be wiser for them to acknowledge they have entered into a 'contract' with God/Jesus.
Yes, there are some seemingly violent [low degrees] elements but they don't have an impact on the overriding maxim, i.e. love all, even enemies.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:51 pm
Janoah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:16 pm It seems that Christians followed this covenant, and exterminating heretics and unbelievers with fire and sword, of course, out of love.
You're going to have to explain to me how any such thing can be legitimately "Christian," J.
That is my point.

As a defense, a Christian should declared he has entered into a contract with God/Jesus where the overriding term of the contract is to 'love all, even enemies'.
Killing enemies is a non-compliance of the term of the contract and no genuine Christian will commit such a non-compliance for fear he will lose the assurance of eternal life in heaven.

There will be Christians who will kill but what they do has nothing to do with Christianity per se as represented in the contract [covenant].

QED.

If you don't apply the above strategy, you can argue till the cows come home and the point remained in limbo.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:39 am ...if he had murdered Christians [with evilly and violently intents] after entering into a contract with God/Jesus...
It wasn't a "contract." It's a change of person, a "new birth" to use Jesus' own language.

Changed persons are different. Reborn persons are different. Paul was totally different.

Here's what the Bible says:

"How blessed is he whose wrongdoing is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!"
(Ps. 32:1)

Notice, it doesn't say, "How blessed is the man who has never sinned." Notice also, it doesn't say, "How blessed is the man who has become so perfect he never sins now."

As the old saying goes, "Christians aren't perfect -- just forgiven."

Salvation is from sin. That means that it's a thing for people who are not only not perfect, but who have actual sins that need forgiving. The first step is realizing the obvious: that that is you. :shock:
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:56 am Killing enemies is a non-compliance of the term of the contract and no genuine Christian will commit such a non-compliance for fear he will lose the assurance of eternal life in heaven.
You're right that no Christian should commit this sort of "non-compliance." But you're wrong about the motive. It's not out of "fear he will lose the assurance of eternal life in heaven," but rather "out of gratitude for what God has done for him, and out of the new life created and sustained by God."

I get it: never having experienced it, you don't know what Christian life is like from the inside. Naturally, you assume it must work the same as things work for everybody else. I would too, if I were in your position; because we all use our own experience as the basis to make assumptions about how other people are living and our own motivations to make conclusions about what motivates others.

The thing you don't understand -- and can't, at the moment -- is that it doesn't work like that. Knowing God changes everything. If you don't know God, you can't know that. But if you did, you would know. And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
Vitruvius
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 9:46 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Vitruvius »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
I disagree. I've looked for God. If He exists - He's avoiding me!
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
I disagree. I've looked for God. If He exists - He's avoiding me!
Well, when you say, "I've looked for God," how and where have you "looked," V?
Vitruvius
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 9:46 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Vitruvius »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:27 pmI disagree. I've looked for God. If He exists - He's avoiding me!
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:42 pmWell, when you say, "I've looked for God," how and where have you "looked," V?
Behind the sofa, under the bed, back of the wardrobe - the usual places, religion, philosophy, science. Science comes closest!
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:27 pmI disagree. I've looked for God. If He exists - He's avoiding me!
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:42 pmWell, when you say, "I've looked for God," how and where have you "looked," V?
Behind the sofa, under the bed, back of the wardrobe - the usual places, religion, philosophy, science. Science comes closest!
:D Well, the sofa was a good bet, but you probably only found a few dusty cheetos and your wife's car keys.

You're right that science has something. And you're right that there are a lot of "religions" that have essentially nothing -- though many of them do express a longing for it. Philosophy has something, if you look in the right places, for sure. Soren Kierkegaard was one, as was John Locke, in his own way, and Francis Bacon, the inventor of the scientific method itself.

But in these places, you get bits-and-pieces. The main place you've got to look is Jesus Christ Himself. It's in Him that a person finds God, or decides not to look at all. It's in Him I found God.
Vitruvius
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 9:46 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Vitruvius »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm And there's no reason you couldn't...unless you choose not to.
Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:27 pmI disagree. I've looked for God. If He exists - He's avoiding me!
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:42 pmWell, when you say, "I've looked for God," how and where have you "looked," V?
Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:52 pmBehind the sofa, under the bed, back of the wardrobe - the usual places, religion, philosophy, science. Science comes closest!
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:06 pm :D Well, the sofa was a good bet, but you probably only found a few dusty cheetos and your wife's car keys.

You're right that science has something. And you're right that there are a lot of "religions" that have essentially nothing -- though many of them do express a longing for it. Philosophy has something, if you look in the right places, for sure. Soren Kierkegaard was one, as was John Locke, in his own way, and Francis Bacon, the inventor of the scientific method itself.

But in these places, you get bits-and-pieces. The main place you've got to look is Jesus Christ Himself. It's in Him that a person finds God, or decides not to look at all. It's in Him I found God.
I'm happy for you - if you're happy; I've no desire to poke unnecessary holes, but I already told you that religion does not appeal to me. I asked you a question yesterday in another thread, and you answered that you know God exists. You're smart enough to understand the difference between knowledge and belief; so - should I hold the front page of Time magazine? Because if you KNOW God exists, you'll surely adorn the cover. I don't think anyone knows whether God exists or not. That's why I'm agnostic. It's the only rational position.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:35 pm I already told you that religion does not appeal to me.
It doesn't appeal to me, either. I'm only interested in relationship with God, something far more honest and personal than "religion" of any kind.
I don't think anyone knows whether God exists or not.
You will know, if you face up to Jesus Christ. If you won't, you won't ever know, actually.
That's why I'm agnostic. It's the only rational position.
I've been there, and I understand why you'd think that. There are good reasons. One is, "If I don't know anything about God, how dare anybody else say they do?" It is easy to think that it would mean a person was claiming unequaly treatment...that God would talk to one person and not another. There seems no reason to think so.

But it's not like that. God has spoken to everyone, first through Creation itself, then through human conscience, and finally and decisively, by Incarnation, through His Son. Access is equal and open to all; and you're getting your offer right now. So there's no inequality, actually.

There are other motives, of course; and I won't say what yours might be. But I agree that agnosticism looks like a fair place to land if one has no more information. Certainly it's far more intelligent and way more honest than opting either for Atheism or for gratuitous belief. So I've got sympathy for that view.

The problem is, it doesn't give one much. And if it turns out that agnosticism is unnecessary, then it can become intransigent -- a sort of stubborn desire not to accept any explanations, even when good information exists and is available. When agnosticism tips over into that, it stops being both intellectual and honest. So one has to walk that tightrope very delicately.

It's only the more honest alternative when no good information is possible.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:33 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:08 pm You believe a myriad of impossible things all day long.
One day, you will believe them too, RC.

Prepare the day.
Now I understand IC. He is one of those who believes the Day of Judgement will be an unique historic occasion.
Vitruvius
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon May 10, 2021 9:46 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:35 pm I already told you that religion does not appeal to me.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:57 pmIt doesn't appeal to me, either. I'm only interested in relationship with God, something far more honest and personal than "religion" of any kind.
I don't think anyone knows whether God exists or not.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:57 pmYou will know, if you face up to Jesus Christ. If you won't, you won't ever know, actually.
That's why I'm agnostic. It's the only rational position.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:57 pmI've been there, and I understand why you'd think that. There are good reasons. One is, "If I don't know anything about God, how dare anybody else say they do?" It is easy to think that it would mean a person was claiming unequal treatment...that God would talk to one person and not another. There seems no reason to think so.

But it's not like that. God has spoken to everyone, first through Creation itself, then through human conscience, and finally and decisively, by Incarnation, through His Son. Access is equal and open to all; and you're getting your offer right now. So there's no inequality, actually.

There are other motives, of course; and I won't say what yours might be. But I agree that agnosticism looks like a fair place to land if one has no more information. Certainly it's far more intelligent and way more honest than opting either for Atheism or for gratuitous belief. So I've got sympathy for that view.

The problem is, it doesn't give one much. And if it turns out that agnosticism is unnecessary, then it can become intransigent -- a sort of stubborn desire not to accept any explanations, even when good information exists and is available. When agnosticism tips over into that, it stops being both intellectual and honest. So one has to walk that tightrope very delicately.

It's only the more honest alternative when no good information is possible.
So you saw Jesus incarnated by God and that's how you KNOW?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Vitruvius wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:36 pm So you saw Jesus incarnated by God and that's how you KNOW?
You know what I mean. Go and meet Him, so to speak: find out who He is. Read what He said and did.

If you don't see God there, you never will. But at least you'll actually have looked in the right place.
Post Reply