Christianity

[Immanuel Can]

You evaded the question didn't you.

I have no idea what "the question" really was. It was so nonsensical, so unrelated to anything I had said, that I quite frankly didn't bother.

Still not gonna.

Well of course your not going to bother with the hard questions you have no answer for.

Hilarious. Waste of time. Forget it.

[Dontaskme]

I have no idea what "the question" really was. It was so nonsensical, so unrelated to anything I had said, that I quite frankly didn't bother.

Still not gonna.

Well of course your not going to bother with the hard questions you have no answer for.

Hilarious. Waste of time. Forget it.

Yeah it's always a waste of time when it suits you isn't it. So lets just forget it, better than having to think real hard for a change, or is there a quote out of the bible you can use to answer my question, that will always save your face from ever having to think for yourself.

[Lacewing]

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

How can the one who does not see life experience any wrath being directed at him? Sounds like God will be harboring bitterness toward someone who is gone.

The quote sounds like manipulative preaching and storytelling, as much of the bible sounds when it's not listing who begat who.

Astounding that anyone would use it as a primary guidebook.

[Nick_A]

Are we children of the earth or also children of the light? We are dual natured. Henri Nouman wrote:

"To whom do we belong? This is the core question of the spiritual life. Do we belong to the world, its worries, its people and its endless chain of urgencies and emergencies, or do we belong to God and God's people."

Doesn't it make more sense that the purpose of the human soul when we have one, is to receive from above and give to below? This means knowing how to take care of the earth from a higher conscious perspective rather then abusing it and justifying it through secular hypocrisy?

You can go wherever you like in your imagination, Nick, but just make sure you are back in time to haul yourself out of bed and get to work.

Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul? Some feel that there must be a purpose for the universe and our lives within it. Others deny it. I'm one of the minority who contemplates purpose introduced by others in the past and verify it for myself through deductive reason. I've found these people are far more intelligent then those lost in denial. To each his own.

[Harbal]

Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul?

If you are talking about the metaphoric soul; the part of us that appreciates beauty, love, music and the like, I suppose its purpose is to make our lives richer. If you mean soul in the literal sense, then I don't believe there is any such thing.

Some feel that there must be a purpose for the universe and our lives within it.

I don't feel there is a purpose, but there's no reason why we shouldn't create a purpose for ourselves.

Others deny it.

If that's a problem, isn't it their problem?

I'm one of the minority who contemplates purpose introduced by others in the past and verify it for myself through deductive reason.

I assume you do that because you find value in it, but others might value something different.

I've found these people are far more intelligent then those lost in denial.

How can you be sure they are lost?

To each his own.

You say that, but you seem far from content that it should be so.

[Age]

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

OBVIOUSLY, 'you', "immanuel can", are NOT YET AWARE that the 'second coming' of "jesus"/'the Son' brings with it the UNDERSTANDING of what words like 'the Son' are in reference to, EXACTLY.

The UNDERSTANDING of ALL else ALSO COMES with that 'second coming', by the way.

The novelist Robertson Davies said that the question we need to ask ourselves is not whether or not we believe God exists, but whether or not He 'believes' we do.

OBVIOUSLY, and 'you' appear to NOT YET UNDERSTAND this ALSO "immanuel can", but if one BELIEVES that there is NO God, then to them there is NO God. So, to question "ones" 'self' if some NONE existing 'thing' BELIEVES we BELIEVE in some NONE existing 'thing' is ABSOLUTE ABSURDITY in the ABSOLUTE EXTREME.

LOOK, it does NOT matter how much you TWIST and TURN your wording NOR in what ways 'you' TWIST and DISTORT them what 'you' are SAYING is NOT going to be LISTENED TO NOR HEARD by those who BELIEVE OTHERWISE. Also, BECAUSE 'you' OBVIOUSLY do NOT YET HAVE and thus KNOW the True and FULLY STORY and Picture here 'you' just keep ending up CONTRADICTING "your" 'self' EXACTLY like 'you' have done here ONCE AGAIN.

In other words, what we believe may change our eternal destiny. But what we believe will, of course, not change what eternal destinies actually exist.

VERY TRUE.

NO MATTER 'what' GOD 'you' BELIEVE IN, what does COME-TO-BE, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED and OCCURRED, and this is WHY 'we' are LOOKING BACK at the WORDS in this forum to KEEP from MAKING the EXACT SAME STUPID MISTAKES that 'you', adult human beings, were CONTINUALLY MAKING, back in the days when this WAS being written.

[Harry Baird]

In virtue of having created reality, and constituted it according to His design. There's no higher reference point.

That's a weak grounding.

Being the Creator and the Supreme Being?

Right. There's no logical connection between "created a bunch of stuff" and "epistemic convictions are necessarily objective" - not even if you were the only being in existence before you created the bunch of stuff.

But if, as you will say, it did not, then it would not help your own conception of "justice" at all.

Again, on this I refer you back to our years-old debate on the grounding of morality, which applies similarly to justice.

[Nick_A]

Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul?

If you are talking about the metaphoric soul; the part of us that appreciates beauty, love, music and the like, I suppose its purpose is to make our lives richer. If you mean soul in the literal sense, then I don't believe there is any such thing.

One doesn't need a soul to appreciate beauty love or music. People do it all the time even without souls.

Some feel that there must be a purpose for the universe and our lives within it.

I don't feel there is a purpose, but there's no reason why we shouldn't create a purpose for ourselves.

If there is no universal purpose or purpose for life within it, would you agree justice must be defined as "might makes right". Take away the bs and justice is really survival of the fittest normal for any animal.

Others deny it.

If that's a problem, isn't it their problem?

Yes, if you are on the losing side of the food chain, it is their problem

I'm one of the minority who contemplates purpose introduced by others in the past and verify it for myself through deductive reason.

I assume you do that because you find value in it, but others might value something different.

I look for those putting in the efforts necessary to verify objective values. This differs from those arguing over theoretical subjective values.

I've found these people are far more intelligent then those lost in denial.

How can you be sure they are lost?

Consider the chaos and hypocrisy of the world leading to the ultimate stupidity of war. It should be obvious that the darkness of the world lives in denial

To each his own.

You say that, but you seem far from content that it should be so.

The world cannot change what it is. Since we are as we are, everything remains as it is. However I can support those with understanding. Simone Weil wrote" "That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men.

Not many of them but every little bit helps.

[Harbal]

Simone Weil wrote" "That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

Maybe it's because I don't know the context in which that was written that I don't understand what is being said here. While truth and justice etc. all seem like desireable things, they don't have much meaning spoken of in the abstract. Can you explain what Simone Weil was thinking of when she wrote this, and something about what she meant by it?

[BigMike]

Simone Weil wrote" "That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

Maybe it's because I don't know the context in which that was written that I don't understand what is being said here. While truth and justice etc. all seem like desireable things, they don't have much meaning spoken of in the abstract. Can you explain what Simone Weil was thinking of when she wrote this, and something about what she meant by it?

I'm sorry to intrude here. She is saying that all the good things in the world can only come from reality. I would like to add that reality is also the only place where all the bad things in the world can come from. In other words, what she says doesn't tell us much.

[Harbal]

I'm sorry to intrude here.

Being helpful is no cause for apology.

She is saying that all the good things in the world can only come from reality. I would like to add that reality is also the only place where all the bad things in the world can come from. In other words, what she says doesn't tell us much.

I agree, on its own it doesn't say much. Nick is an authority on Simone Weil, so I was hoping he would be able to explain what it would mean when applied to the real world, as opposed to just being spoken of in the abstract.

[Dontaskme]

Astounding that anyone would use it as a primary guidebook.

The only guide is our own conscience which is contingent on memory in the here an now. Knowledge on demand is remembering what already exists. Words are the memory of our own conscience, there is nothing in the bible that pertains to the immediate space of realtime reality, because realtime is ever new in every moment. To associate with past events is to dam up the natural flow of now, to get stuck in eddies which are obstacles to ever attaining the clarity of being which is always now.

[Belinda]

Are we children of the earth or also children of the light? We are dual natured. Henri Nouman wrote:

"To whom do we belong? This is the core question of the spiritual life. Do we belong to the world, its worries, its people and its endless chain of urgencies and emergencies, or do we belong to God and God's people."

Doesn't it make more sense that the purpose of the human soul when we have one, is to receive from above and give to below? This means knowing how to take care of the earth from a higher conscious perspective rather then abusing it and justifying it through secular hypocrisy?

You can go wherever you like in your imagination, Nick, but just make sure you are back in time to haul yourself out of bed and get to work.

Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul? Some feel that there must be a purpose for the universe and our lives within it. Others deny it. I'm one of the minority who contemplates purpose introduced by others in the past and verify it for myself through deductive reason. I've found these people are far more intelligent then those lost in denial. To each his own.

Nick says "purpose of the soul". Psychologically ,purpose is synonymous with goal or meaning.

Goal, purpose, meaning is both intellect or affect, or both. While one can presume man is by far the most purposive (or goal-seeking) animal , other animals and plants need no purposes (or goals) because they already and invariably act , feel, and think as they biologically are, and therefore have no need of goals, purposes, and meanings.

Harbal says like imagination is the same as fantasy, but that is not true. Imagination is necessary for the best conduct of any task from the lowest status task to the highest status task. Imagination, unlike fantasy, encompasses reason.

[Dontaskme]

Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul?

Soul is just another word for light which is just another word for life. Soul as the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of life which can only be eternal.

Life is eternal since the source of life is eternal. Nobody knows when death started, for nobody knows when life started. So life has to be eternal. Nothingness is being everything, and yet nothingness cannot be understood as to what it is, it can only be understood as being everything. The soul does not go anywhere for it is everywhere. The soul is eternal and every thing and every where. It doesn't need a purpose, it's already completely whole and unconditionally being in every moment in life and death eternally. How or why would what is just happening without any thing making it happen impose a purpose on that happening? there's just what is without any condition to be anything other than what is happening..

Birth would require death to be present in the very moment birth happens, because only the death of something can lead to birth and nothing else. And the death of something would require life to keep it dying. Life has to be present when birth occurs, otherwise birth just cannot happen. Birth and death are present in every moment as life, for life is eternal. Death, therefore, is life that is changing.

If death has to happen, it would require birth to be present in the very moment death happens, because only the birth of something can die and nothing else. And the birth of something would require life to keep it alive. Therefore, life has to be present when death occurs, otherwise death just cannot happen. Since death contains life, it cannot be an end it has to be life that is changing into it's next form.

Life is not just, it is just happening. There is nothing that can be done about it one way or the other. All there is nothing apparently happening. Everything is an appearance of nothing and has no purpose other than to be.

This is a terrible message for the 'me' because it cannot be heard by a 'me' because there is no 'me' except within the illusory story of personified individuality within the appearance of duality.

There is only the dream, and the dream is made of this earthly fleshy experience, there is nothing beyond the dream, and the dream is apparently real.

[Lacewing]

there is nothing in the bible that pertains to the immediate space of realtime reality, because realtime is ever new in every moment.

I agree with this. Although some writings (from many books) can inspire us and broaden our thinking, they cannot surpass the potential and realization of what's available in every new present moment which can also inspire us and broaden our thinking.

To associate with past events is to dam up the natural flow of now, to get stuck in eddies which are obstacles to ever attaining the clarity of being which is always now.

Yes. It only makes sense that we can continue realizing more than what we've realized before. That does not diminish the value of the past for the past, or what we might learn by assessing it within the larger picture. But it seems a ridiculous mistake (to me) to idolize the past more than embracing the present moment.

Some people might use books/writings/beliefs to try to 'own knowledge' or 'own truth'. Clearly, ownership and authority refer to a specific landscape, which is naturally limited to that. Ownership and authority also require defense to maintain them, which can become very twisted in order to do so. Life is moving -- not static. So, yes, that is like getting stuck in an eddy (as you refer to) rather than being part of the natural flow.

It is interesting to discover that existing in the natural flow (which all things are naturally part of) is actually a relief and benefit from defending a position, and it is endlessly inspiring and bountiful with potential. It is a different vibration (so-to-speak) which (I think) we humans tend to fear because we seek comfort and control through solidity and permanence. It should be obvious how those limit and control us, however, and fear is a powerful deterrent from expanding or moving beyond that which we think we know.

So how can we discover that there is more than what we know? Perhaps by seeking to learn/understand how we are naturally part of much more, and when we are not creating and ruled by our obstructions, we have much greater access to what we need and want... naturally.