Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:59 pm If you think that's "god," maybe you should pick a new one. :wink:
Or I could just continue to leave my options open. :wink:
None of us gets to do that forever.

Sooner or later, you have to marry a woman, or you will be single. Sooner or later, you have to eat, or you will starve. Sooner or later, we all must die and find out what, if anything, comes next.

As one of my old pals used to say, "Sitting on the fence eventually just gives you a sore crotch." :wink:
Harry Baird
Posts: 1077
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:08 pm
Harry Baird wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:04 pm Going back a little:
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:17 pm God is the ground of objectivity.
In virtue of what?
In virtue of having created reality, and constituted it according to His design. There's no higher reference point.
That's a weak grounding. I've created a few computer programs according to my own design. Does that make my opinions of my designs "objective"? I don't think so. There are always alternative possibilities.

[ETA: anyhow, it's time for a rest. I'll see you all on the other side of it.]
Last edited by Harry Baird on Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:09 pm
Sooner or later, you have to marry a woman, or you will be single. Sooner or later, you have to eat, or you will starve. Sooner or later, we all must die and find out what, if anything, comes next.
So what do you expect to come next for me?
As one of my old pals used to say, "Sitting on the fence eventually just gives you a sore crotch." :wink:
Well you can put your old friend's mind at rest regarding me; I am not sitting on the fence.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

But what if the goofi are the ass-whippers?
They often are. Saw a clip this morning: an old woman, in broad daylight, stabbed to death by what was probably a half-wit. Now, I'm not blamin' the crone, please understand that, but: if her head had been on a swivel and if she had been armed, then the knifer might have been the one coolin' off dead.

There are monsters: prepare yourself.

*
For example: age doesn't understand what anyone is talking about because age takes it literally and just wants to vent at the world... oh wait, that's not a good example, it's just true.
Autist or not: Age, when no invitation has been extended, had best stay outta my home at 3am.

*
Okay, a better example:
A whole bunch of half-witted people decide to take up arms against people (perhaps other half-wits) who simply have different views that are offensive to some half-witted people. If they (as well as those who care about them) all resort to ass-whipping, does everyone end up dead?
One group takes after another for no reason other than they're offended at the other group's view point? Not becuz the second group has infringed on or violated the first group, but only becuz they think different? The first group, then, are the offenders; the second group are the defenders. The offenders are wrong; the defenders are right.

But, as we play this out, we can move the justice needle back and forth. What if the first group are like me, natural rights folks, and the second group are slavers who've made no threats to the natural rightists. Who's the bad guy then when the natural rightists take off after the slavers?

Or the first group are slavers who only leash adults, and the second are slavers who leash kids as well: is there any good guy in this scenario when the first goes after the second?

Further: no group, large or small, is monolithic. There are always factions and divisions among supposedly like-minded people. What if, in the scenario of natural rights folks vs slavers, there are some natural rightists who think the slavers ought be left alone (not becuz the slavers are right or good but becuz they leave the natural rights folks alone). And what if, among the slavers, there are those who've begun to question the morality of slavin'. Where do we, as observers of these messes, align ourselves?

We've entered the land of politics where everyone gets dirty.

No, it's best, for your own soul, to stay clear of We. We muddies the waters.

And, if Christians are right, it's a helluva lot easier to stand before God and explain yourself when you've been soley in charge of you rather than as a bit part in a We.

Damn easy for any one to get caught up in the whims or agendas of many. As I say: you have to gate-keep your head or someone will surely make use of what's in there, for their benefit, not yours.

So: loopin' back...

Two sets are goin' at it: let 'em...and don't get yourself caught up in their brouhaha.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harry Baird wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:08 pm
Harry Baird wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:04 pm Going back a little:
In virtue of what?
In virtue of having created reality, and constituted it according to His design. There's no higher reference point.
That's a weak grounding.
Being the Creator and the Supreme Being? By definition, there's none stronger. It will do very well.

But if, as you will say, it did not, then it would not help your own conception of "justice" at all. For if ultimate, Divinely-dispensed "justice" were somehow "unfair," to what higher court will you appeal? From where will you derive your own conception of "justice," so that you can judge God?

To "evolution"? To "random chance"? To "the multiverse," maybe? To the aliens of panspermia? To the demiurge of Gnostic lore? You're out of options for that.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:13 pm So what do you expect to come next for me?
What God says, rather than anything I would invent. And I expect it for all of us: judgment, and either salvation or the alternative, whatever we are choosing for ourselves now.
I am not sitting on the fence.
Good. That's all that's expected of us

But as with all decisions, the consequences follow, of course. So we need to choose wisely.

One of the differences between being a child and being an adult is that children don't own the consequences of their actions, but are often protected from them. When one grows up, one takes one's own decisions, along with the consequences that follow. That's what it means to be a "responsible agent" or "adult."

The truth is that there are always consequences to our decisions; and the bigger the decision, the bigger the consequences. And the more adult a person is, the more he/she is prepared to live and die by that rule.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:23 pm What God says, rather than anything I would invent. And I expect it for all of us: judgment, and either salvation or the alternative, whatever we are
Well I'm sure you must know my position on God by now. So, in the light of that, you know that I am destined for the "atrnative". Now what you don't know about God isn't worth knowing, so tell me, what is the alternative?
One of the differences between being a child and being an adult is that children don't own the consequences of their actions, but are often protected from them. When one grows up, one takes one's own decisions, along with the consequences that follow. That's what it means to be a "responsible agent" or "adult."
I would find that very worrying if I believed in God, but then if I did believe in God I would have no reason to worry, would I? Either way, it seems I have nothing to worry about. :)
The truth is that there are always consequences to our decisions; and the bigger the decision, the bigger the consequences. And the more adult a person is, the more he/she is prepared to live and die by that rule.
For once it seems that not being very adult is going to work to my advantage. :)
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Christianity

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:09 pm
Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:59 pm If you think that's "god," maybe you should pick a new one. :wink:
Or I could just continue to leave my options open. :wink:
None of us gets to do that forever.

Sooner or later, you have to marry a woman, or you will be single. Sooner or later, you have to eat, or you will starve. Sooner or later, we all must die and find out what, if anything, comes next.

As one of my old pals used to say, "Sitting on the fence eventually just gives you a sore crotch." :wink:
It's true that none of us get to do that forever, however, I do sort of wonder what difference it should make to the creator of the universe whether we believe in him/her, don't believe in him/her, or believe something different of him/her from what was written in the Bible. I mean, the Bible isn't a very pretty portrait of the all-powerful creator, if there is one.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:45 pm Well I'm sure you must know my position on God by now. So, in the light of that, you know that I am destined for the "atrnative". Now what you don't know about God isn't worth knowing, so tell me, what is the alternative?
I don't wish it.

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
I would find that very worrying if I believed in God,...

The novelist Robertson Davies said that the question we need to ask ourselves is not whether or not we believe God exists, but whether or not He 'believes' we do.

In other words, what we believe may change our eternal destiny. But what we believe will, of course, not change what eternal destinies actually exist.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:46 pm It's true that none of us get to do that forever, however, I do sort of wonder what difference it should make to the creator of the universe whether we believe in him/her, don't believe in him/her, or believe something different of him/her from what was written in the Bible.
It's not that, Gary. It's that we have the free choice of deciding who we relate to...and that choice extends to our relationship with God, as well.

It's not enough for us just to "believe things," as if "believe itself" had some virtue. It's all about who we believe IN. It's required that we believe (i.e. put our trust in) God Himself. There are simply no other conditions upon which a free relationship can be founded.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Christianity

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:56 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:46 pm It's true that none of us get to do that forever, however, I do sort of wonder what difference it should make to the creator of the universe whether we believe in him/her, don't believe in him/her, or believe something different of him/her from what was written in the Bible.
It's not that, Gary. It's that we have the free choice of deciding who we relate to...and that choice extends to our relationship with God, as well.

It's not enough for us just to "believe things," as if "believe itself" had some virtue. It's all about who we believe IN. It's required that we believe (i.e. put our trust in) God Himself. There are simply no other conditions upon which a free relationship can be founded.
OK. If you say so.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:53 pm
Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:45 pm Well I'm sure you must know my position on God by now. So, in the light of that, you know that I am destined for the "atrnative". Now what you don't know about God isn't worth knowing, so tell me, what is the alternative?
I don't wish it.

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
So I'm inviting the wrath of God, am I? Do you know, IC, throughout my whole life it seems that someone is always annoyed with me for something, and now I learn that even death will not spare me from it. :(
The novelist Robertson Davies said that the question we need to ask ourselves is not whether or not we believe God exists, but whether or not He 'believes' we do.
If Robertson Davies were anyone of significance I'm sure I would have heard of him, so it kind of makes me glad that I haven't.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:23 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:18 pm When a person can experience the world as it is, with a balanced soul, he can also experience objective conscience.
If that were so, what would he experience?

Only the truth, which is grounded in God.
Of course. objective Conscience always was and provides our awareness of objective value in relation to our source.. Its truth is grounded in God. Its origin is God. It is demonic to seriously challenge God or universal purpose from human pride or vanity. Fortunately all this cursing out God or the Christ only effects the outer man or personality so easily forgiven as meaningless. To sin against the Holy Spirit effects the inner man so only a few are capable of it and best avoided.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:26 pm
Of course. objective Conscience always was and provides our awareness of objective value in relation to our source.. Its truth is grounded in God. Its origin is God. It is demonic to seriously challenge God or universal purpose from human pride or vanity. Fortunately all this cursing out God or the Christ only effects the outer man or personality so easily forgiven as meaningless. To sin against the Holy Spirit effects the inner man so only a few are capable of it and best avoided.
We are children of the Earth, Nick, and for the brief duration of our time on the Earth, would it not be more appropriate to give our attention to Earthly things?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:53 pm
Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:45 pm Well I'm sure you must know my position on God by now. So, in the light of that, you know that I am destined for the "atrnative". Now what you don't know about God isn't worth knowing, so tell me, what is the alternative?
I don't wish it.

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
So I'm inviting the wrath of God, am I?
Well, how do you read that verse, Harbal?

To be honest, I think that's how we have to read it. I'm open to hearing alternatives.
Post Reply