Christianity

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Skepdick
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Re: Christianity

Post by Skepdick »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:30 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:55 pm Then we disagree about the meaning of effective.
Maybe we do.
We do.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmMaybe we don't.
No, we do.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmWe are yet to establish whether we trying to agree; or disagree with each other.
That has nothing to do with my sense of effective.
Looks like you are despately looking to disagree.

I guess I'll fuck up your party and let you know that I am using "effective" in exactly the same sense as you.

I should also probably mention that I subscribe to Auman's agreement theorem.

So if you disagree then I vehemently agree with you; but if you agree then maybe I'll disagree with you. So it remains true that maybe we do; and maybe we don't disagree.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:30 pm I don't think we need a common purpose. I'm quite happy for you to have your own reasons for responding, and I will have mine. There is no need for them ever to overlap.
Then I shall set my purpose (and my only purpose) for interacting with you as "wasting as much of your time as possible".

How's that?
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:30 pm So much for effective communication. At least as I mean 'So much for', 'effective' and 'communication'.
I wouldn't know. You haven't even attempted to communicate your purpose for interacting with me; so I can't evaluate its effectiveness.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:29 pm God can stop with the shit whenever he so chooses.
So could you. But you don't. You're choosing your position relative to life, and clinging to it as if it were giving you something. Hard to understand, but that's how it appears.
What do you want from me? Money?
Why would I want that, or think I'd get it from you, if I did? :shock: I don't.

I'm not here to "kick you when you're down," Gary. I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself, holding up a mirror of sorts, so you can take a look at where you are, and maybe decide to stand up.

You forget sometimes, that I'm on your side. I'm not against you, not insulting you, not putting you down. I'm trying to get you to stop feeling so sorry for yourself, and maybe choose a constructive path forward. What else should you want?
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Dubious wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:47 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:37 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:15 am

Rescind all ideas about god to avoid all god complexes and you're back to neutral. Being a big fat nothing, god is neither good nor bad. For the life of me I can't understand why so often people blame something that isn't there...or if there is, has nothing to do with any scriptural entity but simply exists as a process which imposes no morality on anything or anyone.

For many, god must exist in order to blame it for everything which is about as puerile as believing the only path to heaven is through Jesus.
That is one of the psychological causes of God consciousness. Other psychological causes include loneliness, fear of the unknown, need to express what is good (e.g.Gary's My faith is that God is good) and need to express love of what is not-self.
Fine, believe that god is good if it makes one feel better but why continuously rant against a non-existing entity which has zero effect on one's life? Would that make one feel better! Even believing that god is good will have no effect since clearly god - if there were one - has a long-standing policy of noninterference. God neither loves nor hates anything or anybody...even between the worst and best there is no separation. So what are all one's curses or prayers worth in imploring an unknown to whom you are equally unknown?

There are also many ways to express love as an extension of oneself which doesn't relate only to people. It's called empathy in which god is a miserable failure; but then IT would have to be since to feel empathy it's necessary to first exist prior to directing that kind of sensitivity toward other existences.

Consistently accusing god is like accusing someone of a recent murder who has long been dead.
If there is no God we need to invent it. Humans need there to be some
thing that is other than self and which we respect. Most people by the time they are adults have learned that other humans are not entirely reliable, so a perfect boss, friendly companion, host, judge, enemy, protecting parent, or even lover is trusted as the ideal other according to individual need.

People who rant against God are ranting against an imaginary enemy, and this anger is necessary as a spur to finding some other ideal that they can respect.
You will not understand why men seek and believe in God, or alternatively rant against God, until you accept that God is a human creation.
tillingborn
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Re: Christianity

Post by tillingborn »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmLooks like you are despately looking to disagree.
Perhaps to you. To me it looks like I just happen to disagree.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmI guess I'll fuck up your party and let you know that I am using "effective" in exactly the same sense as you.
Then I will do likewise and let you know that you are not.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmI should also probably mention that I subscribe to Auman's agreement theorem.
In which case I will tell you I've never heard of it. I will mention that I subscribe to the principle that if you can't explain it in simple language, you don't understand it.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmSo if you disagree then I vehemently agree with you; but if you agree then maybe I'll disagree with you. So it remains true that maybe we do; and maybe we don't disagree.
That's up to you. I'm quite happy to state what I think and stick with it until I am persuaded differently. If you are content to have your beliefs determined by what I think, that's your decision.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pm...I shall set my purpose (and my only purpose) for interacting with you as "wasting as much of your time as possible".

How's that?
This is a pastime. I literally do it with the time I have to waste, so it's no skin off my nose.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:30 pmSo much for effective communication. At least as I mean 'So much for', 'effective' and 'communication'.
I wouldn't know. You haven't even attempted to communicate your purpose for interacting with me; so I can't evaluate its effectiveness.
See above.
Skepdick
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Re: Christianity

Post by Skepdick »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmLooks like you are despately looking to disagree.
Perhaps to you. To me it looks like I just happen to disagree.
And to me it looks like you don't know what you happen to be disagreeing with.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm Then I will do likewise and let you know that you are not.
I definitely am. I abandoned my use to adopt yours. On purpose.

Just to fuck up your shit and waste your time.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm In which case I will tell you I've never heard of it. I will mention that I subscribe to the principle that if you can't explain it in simple language, you don't understand it.
Oh goodie! I always arrive at consensus irrespective of the interlocutors' positions. How simple is this for you?
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm That's up to you. I'm quite happy to state what I think and stick with it until I am persuaded differently. If you are content to have your beliefs determined by what I think, that's your decision.
I believe that I have no beliefs. But that's another story.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm This is a pastime. I literally do it with the time I have to waste, so it's no skin off my nose.
But there's always the pleasant and enjoyable time-wasting and the unpleasant and regretful time-wasting.

I promise you the latter. And then some.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm See above.
Don't feel like it. Maybe you want to spell it out for me?
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Does God Exist?
William Lane Craig says there are good reasons for thinking that He does.
(VIII) God can be personally known and experienced.

This isn’t really an argument for God’s existence; rather it’s the claim that you can know God exists wholly apart from arguments, by personally experiencing him.
Here, in my view, it all comes down to the profoundest mystery of them all: the human mind, the human "I". For all "I" know, my mind is on automatic pilot generating thoughts and feelings [about God, about anything] wholly in sync with laws of matter. Nature. A nature that may or may not come back to God. "I" am just along for the ride. Or solipsism is in fact the real deal and "the self is all that can be known to exist". And then, as Berkeley suggested, God is the anchor here as well. Then sim worlds and dream worlds and myopic, totally manufactured Matrix "realities".

Or, sure, suppose none of that is the case, and you really are convinced that you have had a profoundly personal experience with a God, the God. How on earth would others, in not being you, go about confuting that? Maybe it's as a result of a mental affliction, maybe through drugs, maybe in the midst of an epiphany of some sort...a truly dramatic, once in a lifetime experience that you and you alone come to embody.

And I'm the first to accept the possibility of that given what must be the staggering mystery embedded in the existence of existence itself.

Okay, but this part...

1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and hundreds of paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in God
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God


...doesn't go away.
Philosophers call beliefs grasped in this way ‘properly basic beliefs’. They aren’t based on some other beliefs; rather they’re part of the foundation of a person’s system of beliefs.
And, in regard to God and religion, how is that not deeply embedded existentially in dasein? Then the part where these personal experiences are or are not able to be demonstrated to others. The part where others are able to have them as well. The part where collectively these experiences can be used to connect the dots to your God and not to their God.
Other properly basic beliefs would be the belief in the reality of the past or the existence of the external world. When you think about it, neither of these beliefs can be proved by argument. How could you prove that the world was not created five minutes ago with built-in appearances of age like food in our stomachs from the breakfasts we never really ate and memory traces in our brains of events we never really experienced? How could you prove that you are not a brain in a vat of chemicals being stimulated with electrodes by some mad scientist to believe that you are reading this article? We don’t base such beliefs on argument; rather they’re part of the foundations of our system of beliefs.
Exactly! Most of us can't elaborate on the "properly basic beliefs" regarding how microwave ovens work or how smart phones can exist or how we can click on "submit" and send our own thoughts and feelings to other computers in the blink of an eye. "Wireless" no less.

But there are those who can.

But what of the "properly basic beliefs" that connect us to a God, the god, your God?

Did you have your own personal experiences with Him? Okay, tell us about them. And if others have similar experiences with their own Gods -- Gods that are not your God -- then what?

Again and again and again: with so much at stake on both sides of the grave, you'd think a God, the God would have made these experiences considerably more revelatory. You have one and through it you are able to make it unequivocally clear that your God really, really is the One True Path.
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:53 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:12 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:44 pm
When do I get the point-by-point, thoughtful analysis — with extended commentary in normal sized text — of what I wrote to you?!
When you come down out of the clouds.
Are you kidding??? Once you've learned "replacement theory" then edumacation is complete. No need to waste time or energy on the tried and true classics of Western thought.
That's the "Great Replacement Theory", right AJ?

https://immigrationforum.org/wp-content ... r-1122.pdf

Now, what we need [in my view] is for AJ to come down out of the theoretical clouds and connect the dots between Jews, Christianity, race, the demographic crisis, and "what is to be done"? to stop it. With or without "the tried and true classics of Western thought" that some attribute entirely to "dead white men".
tillingborn
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Re: Christianity

Post by tillingborn »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:16 pmLooks like you are despately looking to disagree.
Perhaps to you. To me it looks like I just happen to disagree.
And to me it looks like you don't know what you happen to be disagreeing with.
To me it looks like you're wrong.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pmI abandoned my use to adopt yours. On purpose.
Ah well, in that case I've adopted your original position.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pmJust to fuck up your shit and waste your time.
I'm flattered that you find doing so a productive use of your time.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pmI always arrive at consensus irrespective of the interlocutors' positions. How simple is this for you?
If you arrive at a consensus without the agreement of the interlocutor, you are using consensus to mean something different to which I would consent.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pmI believe that I have no beliefs. But that's another story.
It depends what you mean by belief and believe.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm This is a pastime. I literally do it with the time I have to waste, so it's no skin off my nose.
But there's always the pleasant and enjoyable time-wasting and the unpleasant and regretful time-wasting.

I promise you the latter. And then some.
When's that going to start? I'm having fun.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm
Dubious wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:52 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:46 am

Oh for God's sake, get off the high horse. I've said nothing mean to you. I see no reason for the tone of your reply to me. I suspect we have more in common than you'll admit to.
I may have been a little too direct but I certainly didn't say anything 'mean' to you or at least I didn't mean to but you keep harping on some fictional god called Yahweh which has no input whatsoever to what you or anyone experiences. Long ago I've been through that myself so I'm not exactly immune to that feeling but eventually it becomes childish to think that one's make believe Big Daddy in the sky has let one down or better still the human race for being such an asshole.

Sorry if that offends you!
Sorry to be "childish" but if there is a God, then, yes, he's let me down on multiple occasions. I see no reason for you to take issue with my legitimate complaints. If you think it's "childish" to complain about bad fortune, then that's your problem, not mine.
I haven't addressed any of your 'legitimate complaints' which no doubt are real with many people suffering through circumstances not unlike yours. Just listen to the news. Complaining about bad fortune is normal; trying to target some Old Testament deviation of a god for it isn't. In despising Yahweh you're despising a fiction not anything real. What's real are the people and the circumstances which created such an entity which, as we know, is a long story in itself. If you can't see that it remains your problem; it long ceased to be mine having a load of real ones to contend with.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Belinda wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:06 pm
Dubious wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:47 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:37 am

That is one of the psychological causes of God consciousness. Other psychological causes include loneliness, fear of the unknown, need to express what is good (e.g.Gary's My faith is that God is good) and need to express love of what is not-self.
Fine, believe that god is good if it makes one feel better but why continuously rant against a non-existing entity which has zero effect on one's life? Would that make one feel better! Even believing that god is good will have no effect since clearly god - if there were one - has a long-standing policy of noninterference. God neither loves nor hates anything or anybody...even between the worst and best there is no separation. So what are all one's curses or prayers worth in imploring an unknown to whom you are equally unknown?

There are also many ways to express love as an extension of oneself which doesn't relate only to people. It's called empathy in which god is a miserable failure; but then IT would have to be since to feel empathy it's necessary to first exist prior to directing that kind of sensitivity toward other existences.

Consistently accusing god is like accusing someone of a recent murder who has long been dead.
If there is no God we need to invent it. Humans need there to be some
thing that is other than self and which we respect. Most people by the time they are adults have learned that other humans are not entirely reliable, so a perfect boss, friendly companion, host, judge, enemy, protecting parent, or even lover is trusted as the ideal other according to individual need.

People who rant against God are ranting against an imaginary enemy, and this anger is necessary as a spur to finding some other ideal that they can respect.
You will not understand why men seek and believe in God, or alternatively rant against God, until you accept that God is a human creation.
That god is a human creation doesn't need acceptance as if it were simply a choice since no god ever appeared on the planet but exists purely as a scriptural entity proclaimed as sacred and divine. Make laws to protect that idea and voilà, you've created your own conceptual god as a reified presence. Fictions have always been the easiest to create.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

reasonvemotion wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:19 am Lacewing wrote:
Your disdain for Harbal is because you are a pretentious bloated ego intoxicated with the sound of your own voice, as people have kindly pointed out to you. :) In contrast, Harbal is genuine and doesn't subscribe to drama, rather he thoughtfully considers, with humor and truth, whatever screaming nonsense flies at him. It doesn't continually take pages and pages to recognize or say something insightful -- and as you've demonstrated, it may actually show how entrenched you are. Harbal can shine a light on nonsense with one sentence. That clearly represents a threat to you. But try to relax... he's not mean-spirited.
Pleeease, you come across as a servile self-seeking flatterer.
You come across as dense and arrogant. 8)

I'm describing the contrast between the postings and attitudes of A.J. and Harbal. Since A.J. continually belittles Harbal's naturally insightful manner, it would appear that A.J.'s ideas of intellectual superiority and its necessity are being threatened. I find that to be an interesting contrast to observe and challenge because I am one of those people who does not think that intellectualism or position are as important as being wise and flexible, so why would anyone invalidate such qualities?
reasonvemotion wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:19 am By Harbal's own admission he is wrestling with some behavior that he was not proud of after the fact.
What difference does that make? You seem to be making a shallow misinterpretation, rather than understanding what I was focused on.
Skepdick
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Re: Christianity

Post by Skepdick »

tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:42 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:28 pm Perhaps to you. To me it looks like I just happen to disagree.
And to me it looks like you don't know what you happen to be disagreeing with.
To me it looks like you're wrong.
And to me it still looks like you don't even know what I am wrong about.

But I am sure you'll manufacture something in due time.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm Ah well, in that case I've adopted your original position.
Just as well! My "original position" was me stealing your position
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm I'm flattered that you find doing so a productive use of your time.
Don't be. This is how I blow off steam.
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm If you arrive at a consensus without the agreement of the interlocutor, you are using consensus to mean something different to which I would consent.
I don't need your explicit agreement. You've already tacitly agreed to give me your time. But you think it's your own idea, so who am I to object?

Good puppet!
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm It depends what you mean by belief and believe.
Well, It depends on what you mean by "what you mean by"
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm When's that going to start? I'm having fun.
Is this one of those "wrestling in the mud with a pig" situations?

Then again, even calling you a pig might be a compliment...
tillingborn
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Re: Christianity

Post by tillingborn »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:22 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pmI'm flattered that you find doing so a productive use of your time.
Don't be. This is how I blow off steam.
Then you have answered your own question:
Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:51 pm
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pmYou stick with your interpretation of synonymous, tautology, authority, revelation or any word you choose and I'll stick with mine and let's just throw rocks at each other.
Why? To what end?
I think you would get more relief if you were to try and be nice to the wife you claim to have. You know: have a shave, change your underpants, buy her some flowers, a good meal with decent wine, soft lights and gentle music and who knows? You might get your rocks off. If, as I suspect, your wife is a fantasy, just lie in a darkened room dreaming the above with a box of tissues handy. The result will be functionally equivalent.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:22 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pmIf you arrive at a consensus without the agreement of the interlocutor, you are using consensus to mean something different to which I would consent.
I don't need your explicit agreement. You've already tacitly agreed to give me your time. But you think it's your own idea, so who am I to object?

Good puppet!
And you won't be able to resist responding to this.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:22 am
tillingborn wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pm It depends what you mean by belief and believe.
Well, It depends on what you mean by "what you mean by"
Exactly.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:22 amIs this one of those "wrestling in the mud with a pig" situations?

Then again, even calling you a pig might be a compliment...
I think you should try one of the above two options; you are clearly very wound up.
Gary Childress
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Re: Christianity

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself,
End of conversation, IC. I'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes. Go find someone else to kick.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself,
End of conversation, IC. I'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes. Go find someone else to kick.
Speaking of misfortune...tens of thousands of people feared dead today, while they slept peacefully in their beds, due to a massive earthquake.
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