Christianity

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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm Well, plenty of them have done that, with no democratic process involved. The guy with the guns rules.
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:33 pm Sigh! One man with a gun can control twenty million people? I'd like to see that.
Did you miss the plural?
"The guy," is singular, no matter how many guns he has.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:21 pm
If the Leftist historian is not keen on the Industrial Revolution, I invite him to forego all its benefits immediately.
I am aware that your tastes are right wing.
Not relevant to the question, even if it were true.

Any historian who says, "The Industrial Revolution was bad" is welcome to do the same. The point is that the complainant is basking in all the benefits of that revolution, while using the abundance of recreational time it has provide him to find ways of complaining about it.

He's like a "vegetarian" who is campaigning for his diet while chewing down on a T-bone steak.
That can and does happen. However there are also many people who learned lessons for planning and for living from the recorded privations endured by working people during the industrial revolution .
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm Well, plenty of them have done that, with no democratic process involved. The guy with the guns rules.
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:33 pm Sigh! One man with a gun can control twenty million people? I'd like to see that.
Did you miss the plural?
"The guy," is singular, no matter how many guns he has.
Hey, Stalin had control of a lot of guns. So too, Mao. So too, the Kim Jongs, Idi Amin, Maduro...it seems that one guy with control of the armaments can do everything necessary to rule.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:10 pm ...there are also many people who learned lessons for planning and for living from the recorded privations endured by working people during the industrial revolution .
Of course. But we're silly if we don't also realize that where we are today is largely a product of the Industrial Revolution. And unless we want to revert to the conditions of the 17th Century or earlier, we do well not to be too glib about the mountain of advantages upon which that period in history also placed us. One might even point out that things like poor laws, welfare, public education, sanitation, and modern medicine are also fruit of the Industrial Revolution: so even the bad things have bestowed on us some benefits.

But one thing for sure: nobody wants to go back to grubbing in fields by hand, unheated housing, seasonal starvation, rickets and scurvy, unassisted childbirth, and spending one's entire life knowning no more than a 30 km radius of things...which was the lot of the vast majority of the populace before the IR.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:00 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:10 pm ...there are also many people who learned lessons for planning and for living from the recorded privations endured by working people during the industrial revolution .
Of course. But we're silly if we don't also realize that where we are today is largely a product of the Industrial Revolution. And unless we want to revert to the conditions of the 17th Century or earlier, we do well not to be too glib about the mountain of advantages upon which that period in history also placed us. One might even point out that things like poor laws, welfare, public education, sanitation, and modern medicine are also fruit of the Industrial Revolution: so even the bad things have bestowed on us some benefits.

But one thing for sure: nobody wants to go back to grubbing in fields by hand, unheated housing, seasonal starvation, rickets and scurvy, unassisted childbirth, and spending one's entire life knowning no more than a 30 km radius of things...which was the lot of the vast majority of the populace before the IR.


Nobody wants to live in an overcrowded slum, die from over-work as ruled by the clock, breathe polluted air, or be unable to forage for wild food or grow food in a small garden or croft.

Urbanisation followed on the industrial revolution, and urbanisation's problems are still very much with us today, wherever an economy has developed.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:18 pm Urbanisation followed on the industrial revolution,
Urbanization really WAS the Industrial Revolution; at least, it was one of the top trends during the period, along with things like technological innovation, factory life, increased travel and colonialism, and so on.

It was during that time that the vast majority of former rural dwellers flooded into the cities...a trend that's never reversed since, and which continues to play out throughout the developing world and the developed world.
...and urbanisation's problems are still very much with us today, wherever an economy has developed.
Yeah. So you want there to be no "economy"? :shock:

That would explain Socialism, I guess. Everybody poor and wretched. Nice equality.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:04 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:18 pm Urbanisation followed on the industrial revolution,
Urbanization really WAS the Industrial Revolution; at least, it was one of the top trends during the period, along with things like technological innovation, factory life, increased travel and colonialism, and so on.

It was during that time that the vast majority of former rural dwellers flooded into the cities...a trend that's never reversed since, and which continues to play out throughout the developing world and the developed world.
...and urbanisation's problems are still very much with us today, wherever an economy has developed.
Yeah. So you want there to be no "economy"? :shock:

That would explain Socialism, I guess. Everybody poor and wretched. Nice equality.
Competition motivates people to work well. The excesses of capitalism need to be stopped as they cause a lot of suffering
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:54 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm Well, plenty of them have done that, with no democratic process involved. The guy with the guns rules.

Did you miss the plural?
"The guy," is singular, no matter how many guns he has.
Hey, Stalin had control of a lot of guns. So too, Mao. So too, the Kim Jongs, Idi Amin, Maduro...it seems that one guy with control of the armaments can do everything necessary to rule.
No, there were lots of other people who followed them who held and used the guns. Without the followers, paid soldiers, police, bureaucrats and willing supporters, none of those individuals probably ever held, or even knew how to use, a gun. It's always gangs, which just like most societies (US and Canada, for example) are made up of people always clamoring for a leader to guide and save them, which they then support who become the tyrants and dictators. Without their gangs, followers, and supporters, individuals could do nothing.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:30 pm Competition motivates people to work well.
So you're not a Socialist? You're now fine with competition?
The excesses of capitalism need to be stopped as they cause a lot of suffering
Sure. So do the excesses of monarchy, the excesses of suzerainship, the excesses of emperorship, and for all we know, the excesses of matriarchy. Excess tends, by definition, to cause suffering, because it's...what's the word...oh yes..."excessive."

But Capitalism, for all its faults, has caused nowhere near the levels of suffering, misery and death caused by Socialism. That's just historically and statistically manifest.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:52 pm No...
Yeah, I'm no longer convinced that I'm going to get you to see sense. You've got your theory.

Well, carry on.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:30 pm Competition motivates people to work well.
So you're not a Socialist? You're now fine with competition?
The excesses of capitalism need to be stopped as they cause a lot of suffering
Sure. So do the excesses of monarchy, the excesses of suzerainship, the excesses of emperorship, and for all we know, the excesses of matriarchy. Excess tends, by definition, to cause suffering, because it's...what's the word...oh yes..."excessive."

But Capitalism, for all its faults, has caused nowhere near the levels of suffering, misery and death caused by Socialism. That's just historically and statistically manifest.
You still conflate socialism and political communism.
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Sculptor
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Re: Christianity

Post by Sculptor »

RWStanding wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:23 am Christianity
Britain used to refer to itself as a Christian country.
There seems to be little agreement as to what we are today.
In modern terms:
Christianity is not about simple freedom of the individual will.
It was always the complete opposite.
The most cogent reason for people leaving the church is because of that.
Christianity is not about simple obedience to moral codes.
Oh really?
Christianity is about informed conformity to altruist values.
Nah
Human and other rights and duties are legal constructs based on values.
What has that to do with the church of England/Wales?
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Sculptor
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Re: Christianity

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:30 pm Competition motivates people to work well.
So you're not a Socialist? You're now fine with competition?
The excesses of capitalism need to be stopped as they cause a lot of suffering
Sure. So do the excesses of monarchy, the excesses of suzerainship, the excesses of emperorship, and for all we know, the excesses of matriarchy. Excess tends, by definition, to cause suffering, because it's...what's the word...oh yes..."excessive."

But Capitalism, for all its faults, has caused nowhere near the levels of suffering, misery and death caused by Socialism. That's just historically and statistically manifest.
Jesus was a communist
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:39 am You still conflate socialism and political communism.
I don't. Socialists and Communists do. Remember "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"? Weren't they "Communists"?

Socialists themselves don't really know the difference; at least, they don't know how to stop the one from tipping over into the other.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am Jesus was a communist
:lol:
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