It's a shame I wasn't one of them. If they died suddenly in their sleep, then it sounds like a pretty good way to go, compared to some of the other options out there.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:09 amSpeaking of misfortune...tens of thousands of people feared dead today, while they slept peacefully in their beds, due to a massive earthquake.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 amEnd of conversation, IC. I'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes. Go find someone else to kick.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself,
Christianity
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Re: Christianity
Re: Christianity
Suffering turns God into the boogy-man and although the reasoning is simplistic, it is a comfort of sorts, as is simplistic the reasoning of all comforts. To be alone without a God to blame is a scary thing, and to do it while suffering is transcendence when it leads to peace of mind. When everything was taken from him, Viktor Frankl realized that the concept of love, and the memory of love, transcends conditions. But, it was conditions that brought about this realization, this understanding of life.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 amEnd of conversation, IC. I'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes. Go find someone else to kick.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself,
To resent the thief who stole your money and emotions, that's a tough row to hoe. It reminds me of the Zen Story where the old man wishes he also owned the moon so that he could give it to thief who had taken all his things.
Re: Christianity
Then maybe a dead person can be seen as being in a fortunate situation. And that all the people who survived the quake are misfortunate to have missed out on the fortune of dying while they slept.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:12 amIt's a shame I wasn't one of them. If they died suddenly in their sleep, then it sounds like a pretty good way to go, compared to some of the other options out there.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:09 amSpeaking of misfortune...tens of thousands of people feared dead today, while they slept peacefully in their beds, due to a massive earthquake.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 am
End of conversation, IC. I'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes. Go find someone else to kick.
Personally, I would prefer to have never existed at all, but I don't get to choose my birth, no one does, and it seems no one gets to choose their death, not unless they intentionally kill themselves, but what's the point in killing yourself, it's not like you will experience what it is like to be dead anyway. There is no way you can tell yourself you have died. No more than you can tell yourself you have been conceived.
Life then to me, just seems like it has no beginning nor ending that could ever be known. It's a terrifying thought, that life could literally go on indefinitely, infinitely, for eternity, and there ain't nothing no one can do about it.
Re: Christianity
This is an interesting view of things.
“There are more possible games of Chess than atoms in the Universe.”
- Claude Shannon
This statement does not involve belief, or playing every game.
“There are more possible games of Chess than atoms in the Universe.”
- Claude Shannon
This statement does not involve belief, or playing every game.
Re: Christianity
God didn't create this dumpster of a world. It's humans who have made this world into a dump. It was the planet and only that which literally created ALL life through billions of years and look what we're doing to it! Look at the oceans and how we created whole islands of plastic in it. What kind of filthy species does that kind of crap?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pmI didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created for what reason no one can understand. I've endured his shit fest. He wants my worship and appreciation, he'll need to earn it. Sorry.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:49 pmSo...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm ...if there is a God, then, yes, he's let me down on multiple occasions.
The God you don't know, have no relationship with, and whom, in fact you love to abuse and hate on...
...didn't give you things you demanded of Him...
...and you say He's "let you down."
Surprise, suprise, Gary.
He's welcome to end my life at any time he so chooses. Just let me die in my sleep. It'll be an improvement over this world. I don't want to see him in "heaven" either.
Did god, existing or not, create these conditions? Did god force so many millions of people starting from birth into lifelong misery if they didn't already die in childhood through disease and starvation? NO! We and only we are the fuckers who are solely responsible for the condition we're in. God is only that which some, like you, would like to impeach for something it never caused and could never have been the cause of.
That you cast the blame away from what is actually responsible is nauseating! Though nature too can appear more often like a mean witch rather than some kindly mother, there is nothing of the inherent malice in it you continuously impugn to god as if it were the ultimate of personal insults. Most of what you despise was engineered by humans.
Keep your childish tantrums and contempt where contempt is due. I figure you're old enough!
Re: Christianity
Not possible. The question wasn't directed at me. It was directed at you. You understand the difference, right?tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 amThen you have answered your own questionSkepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:22 amDon't be. This is how I blow off steam.tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:26 pmI'm flattered that you find doing so a productive use of your time.
How presumptious of you. I am here because the result isn't functionally equivalent.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 am I think you would get more relief if you were to try and be nice to the wife you claim to have. You know: have a shave, change your underpants, buy her some flowers, a good meal with decent wine, soft lights and gentle music and who knows? You might get your rocks off. If, as I suspect, your wife is a fantasy, just lie in a darkened room dreaming the above with a box of tissues handy. The result will be functionally equivalent.
Well, you were unable to resist typing that when control slipped away from you
Good sockpuppet!
Exactly what?
Why do you think I haven't?tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 am I think you should try one of the above two options; you are clearly very wound up.
I think Socratizing the Socratizers is far more fitting as means to "unwind".
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Re: Christianity
Nobody's "blaming" you, Gary. But blaming a God you don't even believe in is not going to offer you anything.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 amI'm tired of people blaming me for my misfortunes.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:55 pm I'm just showing you the world you've crafted for yourself,
We're not talking about "blame": we're talking about how you get out of a situation you claim to find intolerable. Your way to the better doesn't lie in the direction you're presently choosing. I think you can see that.
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Re: Christianity
If you want to blame humans for the messed up world we live in, then be sure to keep 4 of those fingers pointed at yourself. We've tried to make it better. But it won't get better. We're trying alternative fuel sources but they're not working. Plastic is here because once upon a time it was thought it would make a better life for everyone. It hasn't. Like everything else we try, it has done more harm than good. That's not the fault of humans. That's the fault of the way the world is. The only thing that will make the world a better place is for people to stop having so many babies. But even that would backfire because it would basically hand the world over to those who are willing to produce more babies to have bigger armies.Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:06 pmGod didn't create this dumpster of a world. It's humans who have made this world into a dump. It was the planet and only that which literally created ALL life through billions of years and look what we're doing to it! Look at the oceans and how we created whole islands of plastic in it. What kind of filthy species does that kind of crap?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pmI didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created for what reason no one can understand. I've endured his shit fest. He wants my worship and appreciation, he'll need to earn it. Sorry.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:49 pm
So...
The God you don't know, have no relationship with, and whom, in fact you love to abuse and hate on...
...didn't give you things you demanded of Him...
...and you say He's "let you down."
Surprise, suprise, Gary.
He's welcome to end my life at any time he so chooses. Just let me die in my sleep. It'll be an improvement over this world. I don't want to see him in "heaven" either.
Did god, existing or not, create these conditions? Did god force so many millions of people starting from birth into lifelong misery if they didn't already die in childhood through disease and starvation? NO! We and only we are the fuckers who are solely responsible for the condition we're in. God is only that which some, like you, would like to impeach for something it never caused and could never have been the cause of.
That you cast the blame away from what is actually responsible is nauseating! Though nature too can appear more often like a mean witch rather than some kindly mother, there is nothing of the inherent malice in it you continuously impugn to god as if it were the ultimate of personal insults. Most of what you despise was engineered by humans.
Keep your childish tantrums and contempt where contempt is due. I figure you're old enough!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Christianity
Which further strengthens my conviction that your 'wife' is a fantasy.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:16 pmHow presumptious of you. I am here because the result isn't functionally equivalent.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 am I think you would get more relief if you were to try and be nice to the wife you claim to have. You know: have a shave, change your underpants, buy her some flowers, a good meal with decent wine, soft lights and gentle music and who knows? You might get your rocks off. If, as I suspect, your wife is a fantasy, just lie in a darkened room dreaming the above with a box of tissues handy. The result will be functionally equivalent.
And that nails it. Over 10 thousand posts in under 3 years is a lot of unwinding. You really need to get a girlfriend.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:16 pmWhy do you think I haven't?tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 am I think you should try one of the above two options; you are clearly very wound up.
I think Socratizing the Socratizers is far more fitting as means to "unwind".
Re: Christianity
Which in turn strengthens my conviction that you have the reasoning abilities below that of a genital wart.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pmWhich further strengthens my conviction that your 'wife' is a fantasy.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:16 pmHow presumptious of you. I am here because the result isn't functionally equivalent.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:11 am I think you would get more relief if you were to try and be nice to the wife you claim to have. You know: have a shave, change your underpants, buy her some flowers, a good meal with decent wine, soft lights and gentle music and who knows? You might get your rocks off. If, as I suspect, your wife is a fantasy, just lie in a darkened room dreaming the above with a box of tissues handy. The result will be functionally equivalent.
My wife won't approve of that. But perhaps you are implying I shouldn't tell her?tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pm And that nails it. Over 10 thousand posts in under 3 years is a lot of unwinding. You really need to get a girlfriend.
I guess our code of ethics is somewhat misaligned...
Are you here looking for a girlfriend perhaps? Or a boyfriend? Weird dating site fettsh but who am I to judge...
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Re: Christianity
Given the licence you allow yourself with language, your meaning of wife could be anything. What I am implying is that you don't mean what people who have a wife mean.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:00 pmMy wife won't approve of that. But perhaps you are implying I shouldn't tell her?tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:57 pm And that nails it. Over 10 thousand posts in under 3 years is a lot of unwinding. You really need to get a girlfriend.
And you question my reasoning abilities!
Re: Christianity
I thought I grant myself a license with words, but seeing as you've put "reasoning abilities" on your license I've come to realise I am far too modest.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:13 pm Given the licence you allow yourself with language, your meaning of wife could be anything. What I am implying is that you don't mean what people who have a wife mean.
And you question my reasoning abilities!
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Re: Christianity
Thank you.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:29 pmWhich again shows the strength of your reasoning abilities.
Sadly, you are in no position to recognize them. Metaphorically speaking it would be like colorblind people recognizing colors...
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Re: Christianity
It seems to be a question of *interests*. I cannot blame the forum or its denizens for not sharing my interests. The thing is -- I think this is true for everyone but some are less conscious of it -- is that we seek opposition, we even seek impassable conflict, and seem to relish it when it is found. I've wondered why this is. Sometimes I've thought that *conflict keeps us alive*. If people, if we, did not have something to adamantly oppose we'd not be able to define ourselves, and what is more like death than not having a self-definition?phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:02 pmMaybe this forum is not conducive to having the sort of discussion that you want.
Maybe you need to find a forum which aligns better with your expectations.
Maybe you need to find a forum which does not reject some of your core ideas from the start. Not necessarily an echo chamber but something more receptive.
This may be be difficult but perhaps not impossible.
Personally, my ideal is not so much 'discussion' because, let's be honest, no one can agree with any other one. Isn't that peculiar? Rather my ideal would be a forum where people write independent essays which express their views in a relational way. For example some of us *oppose* Immanuel Can and yet the strict atheist's set of oppositional declarations is simply not adequate and does not sufficiently 'answer' what many see as IC's impossible god-definition (supported more by will than by anything tangible). But here's the curious thing: Immanuel needs to oppose us (the majority of those who oppose him) in a proportional degree as we need him to mount our oppositions! There is a curious symbiosis.
But then What sort of god can be said to 'exist' since the Christian god is absurd through and through?
But nevertheless none of this actually gets to the heart of the issue: How can existence exist? In the conversation [sic] between Tillingborn and IC -- in my own view of course -- both totally miss the mark. Nothing even remotely *productive* (intellectually) came from it nor was any productivity ever intended! The conversation was doomed even before it began. Now isn't that a wee bit curious?
[The fact is that there is no way to explain the origin of life nor anything at all about how extremely complex biological mechanisms came to exist. No one has the slightest idea! All 'structures of idea' (interpretations) fail. So, isn't that where the conversation must begin?]
You could be right. But it is opposition to some of the precepts I work with, and present 'theoretically', that provide a sort of fuel I seem to need to keep moving forward. But I am really interested in defining what are the 'core ideas' that I am working with? Here is the basic fact: these core ideas are essentially illegal. Morally illegal. Once one moves over 'established frontiers' (idea limits) one heads into territory that has been established as 'extremely fraught' and which immediately places you in trouble. And what I have found is that in those places and zones where such discussion and conversations do go on, that they also become 'pathological'. So it seems to me that it is pathology that must become the topic.Maybe you need to find a forum which does not reject some of your core ideas from the start. Not necessarily an echo chamber but something more receptive.
If I were to make a general statement that seems true I would say that we live under a developing 'managerial régime' in which the State has become therapeutic and enforces therapy. This is 'applied anthropology' really. The Individual is the subject of the State's intervention and what is applied to the individual is a schema and ideology which has been determined to be the 'best' one for a larger economic system. The State assumes a near-theological function and replaces 'god' (the god that is invisible and absent).
Curiously, and in a related sense (and here I refer to these pages, these conversations [sic], each opinionator is presenting his or her own version of therapy. Take Lacewing. If only man's ego was not so present we could all realize our 'cosmic' potential, and woe to anyone whose 'ego' is manifest. Underneath it there is a definite therapeutic recommendation. It is the 'moral force' of her condemnations that invoke my interest. These attitudes are very common today, in one form or another.
Iambiguous shows himself to be in a *pickle*. On one hand he is fundamentally aligned with every progressive-left tenet, indeed every Marxian assertion, but then weirdly he undermines his own core position with bizarre statements about his own complicity in 'dasein'. And what about those black brown and red victims, eh? Words to worlds et cetera et cetera . . .
These two especially seem *subsumed* into attitudes that are redolent of the State's therapeutic, applied anthropology function. So in this sense 'certain ideas' show up when people indicate what has them in their grip.
My view at this point is that one can only step back and watch as the ship wrecks; as the train-wreck unfolds -- because we can actually watch it in slow-motion as it all takes place. I mean on the larger economic-political stage but then on the microcosmic stage of personal melt-down. To 'get involved' draws one into the realm of social pathology and then 'objectivity' is quickly lost. . .