Christianity

[attofishpi]

These go out to Atto:

1

2

Thanks, certainly an improvement on the other wacky songs you've been providing people!

[attofishpi]

Nobody can get anything across to Gary. He prefers the 'professionals' because they give him pills that dumb his mind down, thus we mere amateurs have no chance.

It's not all that easy to quit meds. I've tried many times and eventually ended up psychotic every time. But if I didn't think talking to you all "amateurs" was worthwhile then I wouldn't.I'm just not keen on narrowing myself to a particular religious doctrine. As I say, my hunch is that there is something to mysticism worth exploring and I believe all the seemingly different conscious states experienced by various mystics across the spectrum of human cultures, may very well point to some profound common core as to what it is to be a conscious human being in the world. Whether that core can only be explained as "divine" or "spiritual" or else by psychological and biological chemical interactions in the brain is perhaps debatable. But I've read that most mystics claim their experiences are ineffable and therefore any attempt to put their experiences in writing is fraught with potential for misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And I've read that mystics tend to shape their descriptions of their experiences per the customary prejudices present in their societies. Therefore, perhaps mystic experience can be achieved through whatever practice required to induce the state and perhaps the individual can experience much the same coming at it from any religious perspective once they achieve "mystic union" as they call it.

RE The bit I coloured, PLEASE don't narrow yourself to any religious doctrine, they all have their place and believe it or not, there is little by way of contradiction between them - if you comprehend a 1 being God, within which we and everything operate - so Hinduism I believe that is Brahma, where they believe seperate deities are components of that whole...God.

[Iwannaplato]

It's not all that easy to quit meds. I've tried many times and eventually ended up psychotic every time.

Generally there needs to be a replacement for the meds. That's a crude way of putting it, but I think it's a simple enough model as long as we don't take it too literally. The drugs suppress the pattern but don't really deal with it. People need support to get through the feelings and states and ideas that drive into psychosis. In a tribal situation you might very well have a shaman with experience of altered states. Family members and other less close kin and friends to be with the person, at night for example. In modern society we are actually the primitives with very little real help for many people.

But here are some suggestions:
Find people who have also done this. There are even support groups for this.
Find a professional who has supported people and supports the idea (in your case or in general) Possibly a person with the right to prescribe other transition meds.
Set up a contact list: People you can call for support and an ear when it gets hard. Can be online, but the more real, less virtual contact is generally better.
See if you can reduce work pressures, take time off, reduce hours.
Make sure you have good food and good sleep. (so keep caffeine and late night online surfing to a minimum),
Reduce stressors in general. Don't read about the War in the Ukraine and watch a lot of MMA fights, as examples of patterns that some might have that would be better dropped for a while.
Allow yourself some guilty pleasures. More Netflix. A fancy ass dessert after good meal. Whatever.
A broader set of changes and support can be found in....
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Connections ... 163286830X

He focuses most on depression and anxiety disorders, but the basic idea is that we have better mental health when we have certain facets of our lives in order. But whatever steps one can take can help.

Otherwise one is just going back to conditions that are similar to the ones that were present when whatever led to the prescription was made.

Further the having been on the meds can mean that our body is less in a state to balance itself. Cold turkey also may be too much and consider tapering off on dosage.

. As I say, my hunch is that there is something to mysticism worth exploring and I believe all the seemingly different conscious states experienced by various mystics across the spectrum of human cultures, may very well point to some profound common core as to what it is to be a conscious human being in the world. Whether that core can only be explained as "divine" or "spiritual" or else by psychological and biological chemical interactions in the brain is perhaps debatable. But I've read that most mystics claim their experiences are ineffable and therefore any attempt to put their experiences in writing is fraught with potential for misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And I've read that mystics tend to shape their descriptions of their experiences per the customary prejudices present in their societies. Therefore, perhaps mystic experience can be achieved through whatever practice required to induce the state and perhaps the individual can experience much the same coming at it from any religious perspective once they achieve "mystic union" as they call it.

There are patterns one can find between mystical experiencs and the words people use to describe them even across cultures. Ken Wilbur writes a lot about this in his various books, perhaps especially Integral Spirituality and Sex, Ecology and Spirituality. I'd put in a strong warning that he is at root a Buddhist and so other mystical experiences end up coming through his Buddhist filter. But I do think he is on to a lot of connections and also that people can actually communicate about things some people say must be ineffable.

[Harbal]

International banana day cancelled, due to global shortage.

https://youtu.be/8QqkrIDeTeA

Ja, wir haben keine Bananen.
Oui, nous n'avons pas de bananes.
Sí, no tenemos plátanos.
Jā, mums nav banānu.
Kyllä, meillä ei ole banaaneja.
نعم ، ليس لدينا موز.
Да, у нас нет бананов.
Sì, non abbiamo banane.
Ja, vi har inga bananer.
是的，我們沒有香蕉。
Já, við eigum enga banana.

[Harbal]

Mae Iesu'n fy ngharu i, hyn dwi'n gwybod, canys felly y mae y Bibl yn ei ddywedyd.

[Dontaskme]

Mae Iesu'n fy ngharu i, hyn dwi'n gwybod, canys felly y mae y Bibl yn ei ddywedyd.

[attofishpi]

It's not all that easy to quit meds. I've tried many times and eventually ended up psychotic every time.

Generally there needs to be a replacement for the meds. That's a crude way of putting it, but I think it's a simple enough model as long as we don't take it too literally. The drugs suppress the pattern but don't really deal with it. People need support to get through the feelings and states and ideas that drive into psychosis. In a tribal situation you might very well have a shaman with experience of altered states. Family members and other less close kin and friends to be with the person, at night for example. In modern society we are actually the primitives with very little real help for many people.

But here are some suggestions:
Find people who have also done this. There are even support groups for this.
Find a professional who has supported people and supports the idea (in your case or in general) Possibly a person with the right to prescribe other transition meds.
Set up a contact list: People you can call for support and an ear when it gets hard. Can be online, but the more real, less virtual contact is generally better.
See if you can reduce work pressures, take time off, reduce hours.
Make sure you have good food and good sleep. (so keep caffeine and late night online surfing to a minimum),
Reduce stressors in general. Don't read about the War in the Ukraine and watch a lot of MMA fights, as examples of patterns that some might have that would be better dropped for a while.
Allow yourself some guilty pleasures. More Netflix. A fancy ass dessert after good meal. Whatever.
A broader set of changes and support can be found in....
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Connections ... 163286830X

He focuses most on depression and anxiety disorders, but the basic idea is that we have better mental health when we have certain facets of our lives in order. But whatever steps one can take can help.

Otherwise one is just going back to conditions that are similar to the ones that were present when whatever led to the prescription was made.

Further the having been on the meds can mean that our body is less in a state to balance itself. Cold turkey also may be too much and consider tapering off on dosage.

. As I say, my hunch is that there is something to mysticism worth exploring and I believe all the seemingly different conscious states experienced by various mystics across the spectrum of human cultures, may very well point to some profound common core as to what it is to be a conscious human being in the world. Whether that core can only be explained as "divine" or "spiritual" or else by psychological and biological chemical interactions in the brain is perhaps debatable. But I've read that most mystics claim their experiences are ineffable and therefore any attempt to put their experiences in writing is fraught with potential for misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And I've read that mystics tend to shape their descriptions of their experiences per the customary prejudices present in their societies. Therefore, perhaps mystic experience can be achieved through whatever practice required to induce the state and perhaps the individual can experience much the same coming at it from any religious perspective once they achieve "mystic union" as they call it.

There are patterns one can find between mystical experiencs and the words people use to describe them even across cultures. Ken Wilbur writes a lot about this in his various books, perhaps especially Integral Spirituality and Sex, Ecology and Spirituality. I'd put in a strong warning that he is at root a Buddhist and so other mystical experiences end up coming through his Buddhist filter. But I do think he is on to a lot of connections and also that people can actually communicate about things some people say must be ineffable.

Or, drink beer.

[Iwannaplato]

It's not all that easy to quit meds. I've tried many times and eventually ended up psychotic every time.

Generally there needs to be a replacement for the meds. That's a crude way of putting it, but I think it's a simple enough model as long as we don't take it too literally. The drugs suppress the pattern but don't really deal with it. People need support to get through the feelings and states and ideas that drive into psychosis. In a tribal situation you might very well have a shaman with experience of altered states. Family members and other less close kin and friends to be with the person, at night for example. In modern society we are actually the primitives with very little real help for many people.

But here are some suggestions:
Find people who have also done this. There are even support groups for this.
Find a professional who has supported people and supports the idea (in your case or in general) Possibly a person with the right to prescribe other transition meds.
Set up a contact list: People you can call for support and an ear when it gets hard. Can be online, but the more real, less virtual contact is generally better.
See if you can reduce work pressures, take time off, reduce hours.
Make sure you have good food and good sleep. (so keep caffeine and late night online surfing to a minimum),
Reduce stressors in general. Don't read about the War in the Ukraine and watch a lot of MMA fights, as examples of patterns that some might have that would be better dropped for a while.
Allow yourself some guilty pleasures. More Netflix. A fancy ass dessert after good meal. Whatever.
A broader set of changes and support can be found in....
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Connections ... 163286830X

He focuses most on depression and anxiety disorders, but the basic idea is that we have better mental health when we have certain facets of our lives in order. But whatever steps one can take can help.

Otherwise one is just going back to conditions that are similar to the ones that were present when whatever led to the prescription was made.

Further the having been on the meds can mean that our body is less in a state to balance itself. Cold turkey also may be too much and consider tapering off on dosage.

. As I say, my hunch is that there is something to mysticism worth exploring and I believe all the seemingly different conscious states experienced by various mystics across the spectrum of human cultures, may very well point to some profound common core as to what it is to be a conscious human being in the world. Whether that core can only be explained as "divine" or "spiritual" or else by psychological and biological chemical interactions in the brain is perhaps debatable. But I've read that most mystics claim their experiences are ineffable and therefore any attempt to put their experiences in writing is fraught with potential for misunderstandings and misinterpretations. And I've read that mystics tend to shape their descriptions of their experiences per the customary prejudices present in their societies. Therefore, perhaps mystic experience can be achieved through whatever practice required to induce the state and perhaps the individual can experience much the same coming at it from any religious perspective once they achieve "mystic union" as they call it.

There are patterns one can find between mystical experiencs and the words people use to describe them even across cultures. Ken Wilbur writes a lot about this in his various books, perhaps especially Integral Spirituality and Sex, Ecology and Spirituality. I'd put in a strong warning that he is at root a Buddhist and so other mystical experiences end up coming through his Buddhist filter. But I do think he is on to a lot of connections and also that people can actually communicate about things some people say must be ineffable.

Or, drink beer.

'
I suppose that response could fit as a response to either part of my post. Sure, with various provisos for various individuals and their situations and tendencies. Perhaps...and/or.

[attofishpi]

Generally there needs to be a replacement for the meds. That's a crude way of putting it, but I think it's a simple enough model as long as we don't take it too literally. The drugs suppress the pattern but don't really deal with it. People need support to get through the feelings and states and ideas that drive into psychosis. In a tribal situation you might very well have a shaman with experience of altered states. Family members and other less close kin and friends to be with the person, at night for example. In modern society we are actually the primitives with very little real help for many people.

But here are some suggestions:
Find people who have also done this. There are even support groups for this.
Find a professional who has supported people and supports the idea (in your case or in general) Possibly a person with the right to prescribe other transition meds.
Set up a contact list: People you can call for support and an ear when it gets hard. Can be online, but the more real, less virtual contact is generally better.
See if you can reduce work pressures, take time off, reduce hours.
Make sure you have good food and good sleep. (so keep caffeine and late night online surfing to a minimum),
Reduce stressors in general. Don't read about the War in the Ukraine and watch a lot of MMA fights, as examples of patterns that some might have that would be better dropped for a while.
Allow yourself some guilty pleasures. More Netflix. A fancy ass dessert after good meal. Whatever.
A broader set of changes and support can be found in....
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Connections ... 163286830X

He focuses most on depression and anxiety disorders, but the basic idea is that we have better mental health when we have certain facets of our lives in order. But whatever steps one can take can help.

Otherwise one is just going back to conditions that are similar to the ones that were present when whatever led to the prescription was made.

Further the having been on the meds can mean that our body is less in a state to balance itself. Cold turkey also may be too much and consider tapering off on dosage.



There are patterns one can find between mystical experiencs and the words people use to describe them even across cultures. Ken Wilbur writes a lot about this in his various books, perhaps especially Integral Spirituality and Sex, Ecology and Spirituality. I'd put in a strong warning that he is at root a Buddhist and so other mystical experiences end up coming through his Buddhist filter. But I do think he is on to a lot of connections and also that people can actually communicate about things some people say must be ineffable.

Or, drink beer.

'
I suppose that response could fit as a response to either part of my post. Sure, with various provisos for various individuals and their situations and tendencies. Perhaps...and/or.

Well alcohol is overlooked and demonised by some, where silly experimental drugs that big pharma make mega bucks out of are popped with little consideration. Alcohol has been part of human 'medication' for aeons, its part of our makeup, natural and is soothing to the soul in the right dose.
Gazza, when in doubt getting off meds, have a couple of beers.
I was just having lunch with someone here in East India - an Anglo Indian - he brought me a Budweiser Magnum - I like to check the alcohol content :- 8%!!

Had two, fuzzy wuzzy...very happy...see Gazza, that easy ...good company and a few beers is the fix - not ridiculous wacky meds.

[Iwannaplato]

Well alcohol is overlooked and demonised by some, where silly experimental drugs that big pharma make mega bucks out of are popped with little consideration. Alcohol has been part of human 'medication' for aeons, its part of our makeup, natural and is soothing to the soul in the right dose.
Gazza, when in doubt getting off meds, have a couple of beers.
I was just having lunch with someone here in west India - an Anglo Indian - he brought me a Budweiser Magnum - I like to check the alcohol content :- 8%!!

Had two, fuzzy wuzzy...very happy...see Gazza, that easy ...good company and a few beers is the fix - not ridiculous wacky meds.

I'm about as skeptical as one can be about Big Pharma. I think someone worrying about psychosis and who has entered psychosis when going off their meds before, probably needs some kind of more complicated support than beer. But as long as it's part of that support and they don't dive in (right dosage as you say) I can see it helping. The Friday afterwork decompress is a very common anti-stress use of a couple of beers and that works for many.

[attofishpi]

Well alcohol is overlooked and demonised by some, where silly experimental drugs that big pharma make mega bucks out of are popped with little consideration. Alcohol has been part of human 'medication' for aeons, its part of our makeup, natural and is soothing to the soul in the right dose.
Gazza, when in doubt getting off meds, have a couple of beers.
I was just having lunch with someone here in east India - an Anglo Indian - he brought me a Budweiser Magnum - I like to check the alcohol content :- 8%!!

Had two, fuzzy wuzzy...very happy...see Gazza, that easy ...good company and a few beers is the fix - not ridiculous wacky meds.

I'm about as skeptical as one can be about Big Pharma. I think someone worrying about psychosis and who has entered psychosis when going off their meds before, probably needs some kind of more complicated support than beer. But as long as it's part of that support and they don't dive in (right dosage as you say) I can see it helping. The Friday afterwork decompress is a very common anti-stress use of a couple of beers and that works for many.

I had to edit my above post - im on the East Coast of India, not west. Get this...I have just come back from a late afternoon walk around this small town - a fishing village - everyone are so lovely. When I get back to Australia I will post a small video I just took where I am in an alley and three lads on 1 motorbike come past me and I raise my hand because they are all smiling at the white foreigner - got a high five from one of them - as the passed one said "love you!" - so I quickly replied the same - and the guys on the back were beaming smiles at me and waving, wow.
Then I went around the corner to an even smaller alley, people were relaxing in the late afternoon air sitting on their tiny porches. Everyone was relaxed and happy - barely a penny to rub together among them, but they are ALL HAPPY - no material requirements beyond a roof over their head, nice food, and family...In the West it's a rat race - we all gotta get ahead for material possesions or we're fucked.
I don't think BIG PHARMA ""medicine"" would have ever encroached upon this village -

Contrary to you but with respect, beyond decent friends and a different outlook - a trip to this place for example would do Gazza the world of good...beyond any of that, when the mind is manic ...BEER...natural medicine. Alcohol switches synapses off, shuts parts of the brain down - works for me when I start feeling 'wired' ...it's NATURAL.

Ah, forgot the boys about 10 years old - a whole group of them and I imitated wacking a cricket ball for 6 - they all threw their hands in the air - the signal an umpire makes for 6 - sport transfers such emotion and communication - then I got a high five off of them - they're bloody awesome!

[seeds]

Why say Xmas instead of Christmas. Why would that and Xianity be so Greek to us since so much of our vocabulary, especially in philosophy and religion, is of Greek origin?

Did you mean to say "...why [not] say Xmas instead of Christmas..."? Because that would have made the next sentence make more sense.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading or hearing that the original intent of using the letter X in Xmas (and Xianity, etc.) was that it was meant to be a shorthand representation of the Christian cross...



However, part of my beef with atto is that it's annoyingly ironic (make that hypocritical) to hear him say this to you...

Well, I remember when I was a little tacker my Mum complaining about people writing Xmas on Christmas cards, it IS disrespectful.

...after hearing him constantly calling the most sacred text in all of Christianity, indeed, the very text from which Christianity is derived...
...the "buy bull".

In deference to the old adage having to do with it not being advisable to wrestle with pigs...

(something to do with getting oneself all dirty while the pigs enjoy it)

...I would normally simply ignore his insults (like when he, for no logical reason in this same thread, called me a "racist k..t").

However, there comes a point when nasty bullies need to be confronted.
_______

[Age]

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

I don't think matters having to do with supposed spirits, divinities or an afterlife are anything I can rationally deduce from any sort of evidence in this world. I can interpret my experiences in various ways and if I approach it rationally, then I have to say that I've never come across anything indicating that such things exist and even if a voice came out of the blue and said, "I am God", then I don't see how I could be sure that it is in fact God or which God it in fact is, because my first thought is how could any divinity or spirit possibly approach me that I couldn't second guess myself later and say, "was it a dream? Did I have a psychotic episode? Is it in fact the being that created everything?" I mean, I don't know how I could rationally tell one way or the other if I gave it further reflection.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

HOW you could TELL, FOR SURE, one way or the other is an EXTREMELY VERY SIMPLE and EASY process.

Also, what do those symbols at the bottom mean or refer to, EXACTLY?

[Age]

So, GREAT now that you HAVE ANSWERED 'that', what OTHER 'ways' GO WITH 'agnosticism', if you have NOT YET ANSWERED 'this QUESTION', ALREADY?

I'm not sure what you mean by "go with". Are you saying what other ways do not conflict with agnosticism or are you saying what other ways does agnosticism conflict with?

You said;
'I still say agnosticism is the way to go.'

I asked;
'WHY does there HAVE TO BE 'one way', to go?'

You claimed;
'There doesn't.'

I asked;
'So, what OTHER 'ways' GO WITH so-called 'agnosticism'?'

you claim that 'agnoticism' IS 'the way to', as you call 'it'. And, if 'agnoticism' is NOT the ONLY 'way to go', as you claimed here, then what OTHER 'way/s' are there, which could and would GO WITH, or FIT IN WITH, 'agnoticism', as your 'way to go'?

[Alexis Jacobi]

However, there comes a point when nasty bullies need to be confronted.

I got this one, Seeds. Because of my immense moral power it falls to me to chastise ole Atto.

Atto? You there? Bad, BAD you have been. Jesus the Christ has instructed me to put a stop to this. If you will not HEED you will be made to feel.

Also, not only are you *tipsy* after a few potent beers, you are romantically intoxicated which was revealed in your shallow impressions of India.

I undertake this needed chastisement of your excessive naughtiness in true Christian love

Deus vult, mi muchacho, DEUS VULT.