Christianity

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Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:27 am
The question is relevant because it is true that when an entire culture loses its *belief* in a defining and organizing metaphysics, surely that culture is in great danger. Because when a man loses the same he goes adrift, or even develops pathologies, and maybe goes insane.
Not very often when judging by the consequences of losing belief. At least as important as the belief itself are the rituals which have always identified and accompanied it. These continue to operate as an organizing metaphysic as you call it in the sense of being ceremonial within a societal context. I have no doubt, for example, there are many secular Jews who have ceased all belief in the Torah but metaphorically continue to sing to it as the liturgy requires. Rituals are the leftover ghosts of a belief which continue to bind. It may also be that the earning for ritual precedes the belief which justifies and firmly roots it.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:17 pm
Well, let Jesus say it, instead: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned. Create a monopoly with oneself being the final arbiter. Jesus would have made a great TV evangelist! I guess he forgot to mention in this severely limited definition, the countless generations that came before him never aware of this supreme mandate regarding the way, truth, and life as centered in a single person called Jesus! There must in all fairness be some divine bureaucrat ready to account for this egregious default! :twisted:
Christians often take verses out of context (often ambiguous) and create a narrative about them that misleads others into believing they mean something they do not. So it goes with John 14:6. It isn't that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there; rather Christians mislead others into believing that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there. You need to put John 14:6 in context with the rest of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel to understand what it means. Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
Last edited by ThinkOfOne on Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:06 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:39 pm ...without Hashem all roads lead to a Hitlerian Hell
I'm curious about your penchant for wanting to rewrite my claims into language you wish I'd used, or to express conclusions I never drew.

This is false: I did not say this. You made it up.
Generally speaking, Christians say that unless one submits to Jesus that the end-result of this choice is life in a hell-realm. This is a basic, a core assertion of Christians.
Are you going to apologize for the misrepresentation above? Or are you just going to charge ahead, as if you never made it?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:17 pm
Well, let Jesus say it, instead: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned.
"By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Jesus also said that. (Matt. 12:37)
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:29 am Are you going to apologize for the misrepresentation above? Or are you just going to charge ahead, as if you never made it?
For this?
...without Hashem all roads lead to a Hitlerian Hell
It was not a quote but the sense I have got from your general discourse.

Not only will I apologize, if I’ve misunderstood, but I’ll pay a monetary fine.

This is my question:

¿Can non-Christians and even atheists build a sane, productive, and healthy political and social community?

Let the games begin!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:27 am Can you just hang back and listen for once?!
Sure. As long as you don't say I said things I never said. If you can supress that urge, I'm ready to hear you.
So you have mentioned (depreciatingly) superficial, cultural religiosity. What you mean is things not Christian!
Not quite. I mean things some people present as, or choose to call "Christian," but which, when held up to Scripture, are clearly not. Cultural "Christianity" fits that bill nicely. Christianity is not "cultural," or particular to the West...if we were to imagine it was exclusively anything, it would be Jewish. But it's really universal, and thus super-cultural.
But what are the 'racist suppositions'? That also interests me. I looked over the sentence and the designation was to Europe. So you mean to say that if something is strictly or specifically European -- a cultural identity, a European paideia, and indeed a European spirituality or existential ethics -- that it is 'racist' according to you?
Well, you'd better explain this alleged "paideia" of yours, making clear why it's "European" and not, say, Mediterranean or Jewish, or relevant to Asians and blacks. And then we'll see if there's anything racist in it.
This is fitting with what has been called Christian Universalism.
No, "Christian Universalism" is good example of the doctrines I've identified as verifiably pseudo-Christian, but not Christian at all. But "Christian Universalism" ordinarily refers to this: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/chris ... faith.html , and I'm pretty sure you're trying to use it for something completely different. So you'd best clear that up.
And according to you if Europe (and the English-speaking world) is in disarray and does require 'renovation' -- the only viable means in your view is Christian revivalism.
No. The only possible effective means would be personal salvation. A "movement" is not the answer.
So this is what I am interested in bringing more out into the light.
Well, you'll need to understand it, first. It's not any form of "universalism," it's supercultural, it's totally apolitical, and it keys on personal salvation, not mass movements. Those are four basics you have to get down, if you want to understand anything about real Christianity and what it advocates.
The question is relevant because it is true that when an entire culture loses its *belief* in a defining and organizing metaphysics, surely that culture is in great danger.
That much is true. But neither such a "losing" nor any restoration of a "defining and organizing metaphysics" can be produced by mere political program.

This is one of the key differences between politicized "Christendom" (an artificial blending of the words "Christianity" and "kingdom," found nowhere in Scripture, either as a term or as a concept) and real, personal "Christianity." They are not the same thing, and in many ways, the former is actually the opposite of the latter.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:12 am Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
I couldn't agree more. Much false doctrine and many bad ideas are produced by taking a single verse out of context. And that is precisely why I give the reference for any quotation I cite...so it can be checked, and set in the given context.

But let's see how you make John 14:6 different in context than what it plainly says as I quoted it. Please, go ahead...exposit it. Put it back in context, and show what it really means.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:11 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:12 am Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
I couldn't agree more. Much false doctrine and many bad ideas are produced by taking a single verse out of context. And that is precisely why I give the reference for any quotation I cite...so it can be checked, and set in the given context.

But let's see how you make John 14:6 different in context than what it plainly says as I quoted it. Please, go ahead...exposit it. Put it back in context, and show what it really means.
First, since there doesn't seem to be consensus amongst Christians, what exactly do you assert Jesus had in mind with John 14:6? Then I'll know how to frame my response.

Others should note how often IC similarly takes what other posters write out of context.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:11 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:12 am Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
I couldn't agree more. Much false doctrine and many bad ideas are produced by taking a single verse out of context. And that is precisely why I give the reference for any quotation I cite...so it can be checked, and set in the given context.

But let's see how you make John 14:6 different in context than what it plainly says as I quoted it. Please, go ahead...exposit it. Put it back in context, and show what it really means.
First, since there doesn't seem to be consensus amongst Christians, what exactly do you assert Jesus had in mind with John 14:6?
Actually, there is consensus as to what the words mean, and also as to what they imply in context.

The difficulty is really not in understanding the words. It's in being willing to receive them.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:12 am
Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:17 pm
Well, let Jesus say it, instead: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned. Create a monopoly with oneself being the final arbiter. Jesus would have made a great TV evangelist! I guess he forgot to mention in this severely limited definition, the countless generations that came before him never aware of this supreme mandate regarding the way, truth, and life as centered in a single person called Jesus! There must in all fairness be some divine bureaucrat ready to account for this egregious default! :twisted:
Christians often take verses out of context (often ambiguous) and create a narrative about them that misleads others into believing they mean something they do not. So it goes with John 14:6. It isn't that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there; rather Christians mislead others into believing that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there. You need to put John 14:6 in context with the rest of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel to understand what it means. Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
There is no "his gospel" since the earliest gospel was written by Mark approximately around the time of the Siege of Jerusalem 40 years later. Jesus didn't write any gospel so there can be no 'his gospel'. None of the gospels, containing huge amounts of contradiction both inter and intra, can know what Jesus actually spoke. The motives of each of the gospel writers - besides often being at odds with each other - cannot unconditionally be presumed to be that of Jesus at such a late date. The gospels are propaganda sheets based first and foremost on the motives of its writer to propagate the faith.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:53 am
Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:17 pm
Well, let Jesus say it, instead: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned.
"By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Jesus also said that. (Matt. 12:37)
Why would I give a crap what another human born in some Jewish backwater said 2000 years ago! Whose "biographers", so-called, meaning Matthew and Luke, told different stories - except for a few overlaps - each having different motives in telling it.

It certainly doesn't sound very godlike - more grossly human in fact - for Jesus to assert per Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad". This statement alone, among many others, defines to me what a dilapidated human this god really was, and the abject stupidity required for its unconditional belief, the true consequence of which is to negate thinking so as not to infringe the command.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:11 am Much false doctrine and many bad ideas are produced by taking a single verse out of context. And that is precisely why I give the reference for any quotation I cite...so it can be checked, and set in the given context.

But let's see how you make John 14:6 different in context than what it plainly says as I quoted it. Please, go ahead...exposit it. Put it back in context, and show what it really means.
If i wanted to know what it says in the Bible, you would be the first person I would ask, but if I wanted an honest interpretation of what it meant, you would be the last.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:40 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:11 am
I couldn't agree more. Much false doctrine and many bad ideas are produced by taking a single verse out of context. And that is precisely why I give the reference for any quotation I cite...so it can be checked, and set in the given context.

But let's see how you make John 14:6 different in context than what it plainly says as I quoted it. Please, go ahead...exposit it. Put it back in context, and show what it really means.
First, since there doesn't seem to be consensus amongst Christians, what exactly do you assert Jesus had in mind with John 14:6?
Actually, there is consensus as to what the words mean, and also as to what they imply in context.

The difficulty is really not in understanding the words. It's in being willing to receive them.
Then you should have no trouble at all with posting EXACTLY what you assert Jesus had in mind with John 14:6 instead of dancing around it. By all means, post YOUR understanding.
Last edited by ThinkOfOne on Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Dubious wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:43 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:12 am
Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm

The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned. Create a monopoly with oneself being the final arbiter. Jesus would have made a great TV evangelist! I guess he forgot to mention in this severely limited definition, the countless generations that came before him never aware of this supreme mandate regarding the way, truth, and life as centered in a single person called Jesus! There must in all fairness be some divine bureaucrat ready to account for this egregious default! :twisted:
Christians often take verses out of context (often ambiguous) and create a narrative about them that misleads others into believing they mean something they do not. So it goes with John 14:6. It isn't that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there; rather Christians mislead others into believing that Jesus creat[ed] a monopoly" there. You need to put John 14:6 in context with the rest of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel to understand what it means. Better still, put John 14:6 in context the entirety of the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His gospel. Jesus preached His gospel from the beginning of His ministry through His death.
There is no "his gospel" since the earliest gospel was written by Mark approximately around the time of the Siege of Jerusalem 40 years later. Jesus didn't write any gospel so there can be no 'his gospel'. None of the gospels, containing huge amounts of contradiction both inter and intra, can know what Jesus actually spoke. The motives of each of the gospel writers - besides often being at odds with each other - cannot unconditionally be presumed to be that of Jesus at such a late date. The gospels are propaganda sheets based first and foremost on the motives of its writer to propagate the faith.
What a ridiculous argument. It's as if you have no understanding of the documentation of history whatsoever.
There are any number of historical figures for whom either there are no or few extant copies of what they wrote themselves. Only copies of what others said they wrote - often having been written years later. They are still talked about and considered to be their thoughts and words. This is especially true of figures from ancient history. Where's the sense in you mindlessly parroting a ridiculous argument that holds no water?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:31 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:53 am
Dubious wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:47 pm

The usual propaganda as far as the salvation racket is concerned.
"By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Jesus also said that. (Matt. 12:37)
Why would I give a crap...
Maybe you don't.

You will.
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