Christianity

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Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:35 am I strongly disagree. Determinism does indeed include thoughts as causes.
Nope. It rules them out, absolutely.

That's one of the reasons it's a silly belief. It fails to reflect obvious realities, just as you say.
I said nothing of the sort. Thoughts are realities. Mind is real. Conscious feelings are real. Beliefs are real; even false beliefs are real. Dreams are real. Prejudices are real. Hopes are real. Faith is real.
Each idea you have is an aspect of reality.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:35 am I strongly disagree. Determinism does indeed include thoughts as causes.
Nope. It rules them out, absolutely.

That's one of the reasons it's a silly belief. It fails to reflect obvious realities, just as you say.
I said nothing of the sort. Thoughts are realities. Mind is real. Conscious feelings are real. Beliefs are real; even false beliefs are real. Dreams are real. Prejudices are real. Hopes are real. Faith is real.
Each idea you have is an aspect of reality.
I remember reading once and I paraphrase: "Why look for causes in nature when nature herself is an effect"


Life below Plato's divided line may be real but is mechanical and meaningless. Yet a Christian is attracted to meaning. For this a person must open to the reality above the divided line regardless of the attractions of the secular world below the line.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:13 am
I remember reading once and I paraphrase: "Why look for causes in nature when nature herself is an effect"


Life below Plato's divided line may be real but is mechanical and meaningless. Yet a Christian is attracted to meaning. For this a person must open to the reality above the divided line regardless of the attractions of the secular world below the line.
Meaning is put there in the realisation of a cold hard truth that reality has no meaning, therefore, it's a need that has no need. It's a mental construction, an illusion.

There are only effects known...never causes. There is no knowledge of a first cause to all the effects known to the observer that can never be known.

There is no dividing line...sorry but that's just another mentally constructed artificial myth.

.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:35 am I strongly disagree. Determinism does indeed include thoughts as causes.
Nope. It rules them out, absolutely.

That's one of the reasons it's a silly belief. It fails to reflect obvious realities, just as you say.
I said nothing of the sort.
You did, actually. You said there are such things as "thoughts as causes." Determinism insists there's no such thing. In that, Determinism fails to include things both you and I know are real. It's a bad theory.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:32 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:13 am
I remember reading once and I paraphrase: "Why look for causes in nature when nature herself is an effect"


Life below Plato's divided line may be real but is mechanical and meaningless. Yet a Christian is attracted to meaning. For this a person must open to the reality above the divided line regardless of the attractions of the secular world below the line.
Meaning is put there in the realisation of a cold hard truth that reality has no meaning, therefore, it's a need that has no need. It's a mental construction, an illusion.

There are only effects known...never causes. There is no knowledge of a first cause to all the effects known to the observer that can never be known.

There is no dividing line...sorry but that's just another mentally constructed artificial myth.

.
You write that reality has no meaning but perhaps you are under an illusion. Many deny objective meaning for themselves since they lack the quality of impartial attention necessary to sense, feel, and reason meaning with the whole of themselves. As a result, lacking sustained impartial attention people live in imagination
"Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:49 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:32 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:13 am
I remember reading once and I paraphrase: "Why look for causes in nature when nature herself is an effect"


Life below Plato's divided line may be real but is mechanical and meaningless. Yet a Christian is attracted to meaning. For this a person must open to the reality above the divided line regardless of the attractions of the secular world below the line.
Meaning is put there in the realisation of a cold hard truth that reality has no meaning, therefore, it's a need that has no need. It's a mental construction, an illusion.

There are only effects known...never causes. There is no knowledge of a first cause to all the effects known to the observer that can never be known.

There is no dividing line...sorry but that's just another mentally constructed artificial myth.

.
You write that reality has no meaning but perhaps you are under an illusion. Many deny objective meaning for themselves since they lack the quality of impartial attention necessary to sense, feel, and reason meaning with the whole of themselves. As a result, lacking sustained impartial attention people live in imagination
"Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil
There’s just what’s happening to no one.

Nothing being everything being nothing.

There’s no one to die - this one is already dead.
There’s no one to live - this one is already living.

Just this, the singular immediacy of what’s happening.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:14 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:49 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:32 am

Meaning is put there in the realisation of a cold hard truth that reality has no meaning, therefore, it's a need that has no need. It's a mental construction, an illusion.

There are only effects known...never causes. There is no knowledge of a first cause to all the effects known to the observer that can never be known.

There is no dividing line...sorry but that's just another mentally constructed artificial myth.

.
You write that reality has no meaning but perhaps you are under an illusion. Many deny objective meaning for themselves since they lack the quality of impartial attention necessary to sense, feel, and reason meaning with the whole of themselves. As a result, lacking sustained impartial attention people live in imagination
"Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil
There’s just what’s happening to no one.

Nothing being everything being nothing.

There’s no one to die - this one is already dead.
There’s no one to live - this one is already living.

Just this, the singular immediacy of what’s happening.
The process of existence occurs within the isness of NOW. For some reason you deny the process of existence. Most prefer to imagine it leading to all sorts of conflicts including wars. Yet there are these rare ones like Simone who needed to experience with the whole of themselves that things and beings exist and are willing to sacrifice their illusions to experience it. They know what it means to carry ones cross and are willing and able to do it in order to experience the truth of the human condition rather than wallowing in what Nietzsche called the "wretched contentment" of imagination.

I'm not saying you are wrong to deny since it may not matter for you. I just have the greatest admiration for those whose need for meaning gave them the need and the will to carry their own cross for the benefit of their own being
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"The process of existence occurs within the isness of NOW."

Nuh-uh it occurs within the nowness of IS, Nick.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:39 pm
The process of existence occurs within the isness of NOW. For some reason you deny the process of existence. Most prefer to imagine it leading to all sorts of conflicts including wars. Yet there are these rare ones like Simone who needed to experience with the whole of themselves that things and beings exist and are willing to sacrifice their illusions to experience it. They know what it means to carry ones cross and are willing and able to do it in order to experience the truth of the human condition rather than wallowing in what Nietzsche called the "wretched contentment" of imagination.

I'm not saying you are wrong to deny since it may not matter for you. I just have the greatest admiration for those whose need for meaning gave them the need and the will to carry their own cross for the benefit of their own being
There is no one to deny the process of existence. Existence is just what's happening, that cannot be denied.

There is only what's happening, including the story of a someone informing someone else that they deny the process of existence... this is what's happening. Nothing is making what's happening happen, because nothing is happening.

There is only nothing being everything being nothing. Nothing is happening, and everything is happening, and that's all there is to it...and this is it. Including this, and that, and Simone.

Any story that can be written,and then recited, or personally experienced as it is known as it it written, is just what's happening, there's just everything arising from nothing, being everything being nothing.

No one can deny what's happening, because to deny what's happening, would also be what's happening.

This apparent happening can never not happen, because if it could, it would never KNOW it's not happened ...because knowledge is only apparent within what's happening, and never in what is not happening, which is also what's happening.


....Therefore, knowing is always the immediacy of what is always this singular immediate knowing, this happening that can never not happen.





.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Nope. It rules them out, absolutely.

That's one of the reasons it's a silly belief. It fails to reflect obvious realities, just as you say.
I said nothing of the sort.
You did, actually. You said there are such things as "thoughts as causes." Determinism insists there's no such thing. In that, Determinism fails to include things both you and I know are real. It's a bad theory.
You are either stupid or a liar. I said no such thing. I always maintained thoughts are causes. If you persist in your misrepresentation you should refer to an actual post.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:13 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:27 pm
Nope. It rules them out, absolutely.

That's one of the reasons it's a silly belief. It fails to reflect obvious realities, just as you say.
I said nothing of the sort. Thoughts are realities. Mind is real. Conscious feelings are real. Beliefs are real; even false beliefs are real. Dreams are real. Prejudices are real. Hopes are real. Faith is real.
Each idea you have is an aspect of reality.
I remember reading once and I paraphrase: "Why look for causes in nature when nature herself is an effect"


Life below Plato's divided line may be real but is mechanical and meaningless. Yet a Christian is attracted to meaning. For this a person must open to the reality above the divided line regardless of the attractions of the secular world below the line.
In the largest sense 'nature' is an effect of man's quest for order as apposed to chaos. However Xianity is not the only cosmogony and morality.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:24 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:13 am

I said nothing of the sort.
You did, actually. You said there are such things as "thoughts as causes." Determinism insists there's no such thing. In that, Determinism fails to include things both you and I know are real. It's a bad theory.
You are either stupid or a liar. I said no such thing.
So you did NOT say there are "thoughts as causes"? :shock:

Funny. Those were your exact words in your message. Did somebody run in, club you unconscious, and type them for you?

Or are you just not aware -- again -- of the implications of what you, yourself actually wrote?
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:24 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:44 pm

You did, actually. You said there are such things as "thoughts as causes." Determinism insists there's no such thing. In that, Determinism fails to include things both you and I know are real. It's a bad theory.
You are either stupid or a liar. I said no such thing.
So you did NOT say there are "thoughts as causes"? :shock:

Funny. Those were your exact words in your message. Did somebody run in, club you unconscious, and type them for you?

Or are you just not aware -- again -- of the implications of what you, yourself actually wrote?
Context matters.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:19 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:24 am

You are either stupid or a liar. I said no such thing.
So you did NOT say there are "thoughts as causes"? :shock:

Funny. Those were your exact words in your message. Did somebody run in, club you unconscious, and type them for you?

Or are you just not aware -- again -- of the implications of what you, yourself actually wrote?
Context matters.
Hey, it was your context. You wrote it.

Don't blame me for what you say.
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

promethean75 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:59 pm "The process of existence occurs within the isness of NOW."

Nuh-uh it occurs within the nowness of IS, Nick.
:lol:
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