Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:23 pm DaM
There is no purpose of life. Life never asks itself, what is my purpose. Purpose is an artificial construct of thinking, 'thoughts' are by-products of knowing consciousness, that can never experience or see itself as a conceptual object.
This is why we cannot understand each other. Where you take the wholeness of God as the only reality while everything else is a dream, I believe the devolution of God into three as the beginning of creation is a natural quality of God. The Holy Trinity of Christianity and the Hindu trimurti for example are what makes God complete.

God as the ALL containing everything within it as conscious potentials is the active force. It is opposed by the passive force of resistance or what creates individuality within creation. They manifest as phenomenon by the force of reconciliation uniting them. So for me, conscious individuality which contemplates its existence in relation to its source is essential for the completeness of God.
Ok, but you haven't answered the questions I posed to you. . but you did leave a response, which I have read...but WHO wrote it? WHO is reading it? Now see if you can physically touch the reader and the 'WRITER' of the message?
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:25 am
Who am I and why do I exist?
Answer the bolded question you asked yourself, answer it concisely without doubt or error and then watch everything else you claim to know and believe melt away into what is likened to a dream.

I'll await your reply, but will not hold out much hope of getting a correct and concise one, but you may surprise me.

You can day dream all day thinking about stories and writing them down for everyone to read, any one of us can do.

You obviously must undertand that story writing and reading is what humans do, but do these humans actually know who is writing and reading the stories they tell?

.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:06 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:23 pm DaM
There is no purpose of life. Life never asks itself, what is my purpose. Purpose is an artificial construct of thinking, 'thoughts' are by-products of knowing consciousness, that can never experience or see itself as a conceptual object.
This is why we cannot understand each other. Where you take the wholeness of God as the only reality while everything else is a dream, I believe the devolution of God into three as the beginning of creation is a natural quality of God. The Holy Trinity of Christianity and the Hindu trimurti for example are what makes God complete.

God as the ALL containing everything within it as conscious potentials is the active force. It is opposed by the passive force of resistance or what creates individuality within creation. They manifest as phenomenon by the force of reconciliation uniting them. So for me, conscious individuality which contemplates its existence in relation to its source is essential for the completeness of God.
Ok, but you haven't answered the questions I posed to you. . but you did leave a response, which I have read...but WHO wrote it? WHO is reading it? Now see if you can physically touch the reader and the 'WRITER' of the message?
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:25 am
Who am I and why do I exist?
Answer the bolded question you asked yourself, answer it concisely without doubt or error and then watch everything else you claim to know and believe melt away into what is likened to a dream.

I'll await your reply, but will not hold out much hope of getting a correct and concise one, but you may surprise me.

You can day dream all day thinking about stories and writing them down for everyone to read, any one of us can do.

You obviously must undertand that story writing and reading is what humans do, but do these humans actually know who is writing and reading the stories they tell?

.
I'd rephrase DAM's question. Does the reader or the listener know what the author or the reader or the listener really is?

No, nobody knows . However what a man can do is decide what he really is and make an effort to do what he himself decides will be authentically himself. A man can to a certain extent create himself.

Think of these old American traditional quilts that you can see in museums. The woman who made a an old traditional quilt could sew together only scraps of textile she already has. However she was fairly free to assemble the scraps according to her own pattern.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:58 am
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:06 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:23 pm DaM



This is why we cannot understand each other. Where you take the wholeness of God as the only reality while everything else is a dream, I believe the devolution of God into three as the beginning of creation is a natural quality of God. The Holy Trinity of Christianity and the Hindu trimurti for example are what makes God complete.

God as the ALL containing everything within it as conscious potentials is the active force. It is opposed by the passive force of resistance or what creates individuality within creation. They manifest as phenomenon by the force of reconciliation uniting them. So for me, conscious individuality which contemplates its existence in relation to its source is essential for the completeness of God.
Ok, but you haven't answered the questions I posed to you. . but you did leave a response, which I have read...but WHO wrote it? WHO is reading it? Now see if you can physically touch the reader and the 'WRITER' of the message?
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:25 am
Who am I and why do I exist?
Answer the bolded question you asked yourself, answer it concisely without doubt or error and then watch everything else you claim to know and believe melt away into what is likened to a dream.

I'll await your reply, but will not hold out much hope of getting a correct and concise one, but you may surprise me.

You can day dream all day thinking about stories and writing them down for everyone to read, any one of us can do.

You obviously must undertand that story writing and reading is what humans do, but do these humans actually know who is writing and reading the stories they tell?

.
I'd rephrase DAM's question. Does the reader or the listener know what the author or the reader or the listener really is?

No, nobody knows . However what a man can do is decide what he really is and make an effort to do what he himself decides will be authentically himself. A man can to a certain extent create himself.

Think of these old American traditional quilts that you can see in museums. The woman who made a an old traditional quilt could sew together only scraps of textile she already has. However she was fairly free to assemble the scraps according to her own pattern.
Thanks for the rephase Belinda :D

I loved it.

I know I'm crap at saying what it is I want to say, so your clarity is much appreciated. :wink:
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:06 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:23 pm DaM
There is no purpose of life. Life never asks itself, what is my purpose. Purpose is an artificial construct of thinking, 'thoughts' are by-products of knowing consciousness, that can never experience or see itself as a conceptual object.
This is why we cannot understand each other. Where you take the wholeness of God as the only reality while everything else is a dream, I believe the devolution of God into three as the beginning of creation is a natural quality of God. The Holy Trinity of Christianity and the Hindu trimurti for example are what makes God complete.

God as the ALL containing everything within it as conscious potentials is the active force. It is opposed by the passive force of resistance or what creates individuality within creation. They manifest as phenomenon by the force of reconciliation uniting them. So for me, conscious individuality which contemplates its existence in relation to its source is essential for the completeness of God.
Ok, but you haven't answered the questions I posed to you. . but you did leave a response, which I have read...but WHO wrote it? WHO is reading it? Now see if you can physically touch the reader and the 'WRITER' of the message?
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:25 am
Who am I and why do I exist?
Answer the bolded question you asked yourself, answer it concisely without doubt or error and then watch everything else you claim to know and believe melt away into what is likened to a dream.

I'll await your reply, but will not hold out much hope of getting a correct and concise one, but you may surprise me.

You can day dream all day thinking about stories and writing them down for everyone to read, any one of us can do.

You obviously must undertand that story writing and reading is what humans do, but do these humans actually know who is writing and reading the stories they tell?

.
“I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6).

Jesus can say "I Am" since he is one unified I. We cannot say I Am since we are many. We don't have one unified I but exist as many small i's which appear as conditioned to do. Sometimes the i's of your senses are dominant while at other times the i's of your heart or your reason are dominant.

We are many. Man's name is legion. Who writes the story? It depends on which i's are dominant. Who has access to truth. It is the unified I or one or the goal of conscious evolution.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
“I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6).
The above message is just more illusory conceptual story telling.

So you still haven't answered the question that is asking you to point or touch with your fingers the ( I )

Just ask yourself, can you point to the ( I ) who is writing the story, who is telling the story, who is hearing the story, who is reading the story.

Where is the I located exactly?...can you point to the ( I ) and be able to tell yourself this is the ( I ) right here, who is the writer of the conceptual story, who is the teller of the conceptual story, who is the hearer of the conceptual story, and who is the reader of the conceptual story ?

Where and who, and what is the KNOWER?

This is what is being asked...now answer the question....can you point to the ( I ) that is claimed to know the conceptual story that is being claimed to be written, told, heard, and read by ( I ) ?


I suppose what I am trying to say to you Nick, is a finger can point to every thing, but a finger can never point to the finger that is pointing.

(Every thing known) is No thing knowing. And No thing knowing is (Every thing known)...there are here only concepts known, in this conception, this conceptual story. Only concepts are known Nick, not the KNOWING that knows them. Knowing cannot know it is knowing because that would be like a finger being able to point to its own finger.

Knowing is ONE...not two, not the many.

Image

When Knowing an image in the mirror aka ( mirror image) the known image is known as a reflection of the knowing which in and of itself does not know, because it's only a mirage.

That which is looking out of your eyes, is pure empty looking, it has to be opaque to be able to reflect an image, which is also empty.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Unspirituality is spirituality, it's the same concept known IN this artificial INconceivable conception.

Non-duality is duality, it's the same concept known IN this artificial INconceivable conception.

The unity of opposites is the central category of dialectics, said to be related to the notion of non-duality in a deep sense.

Re-lated...is an artifical division where there is none. As opposites MUST exist together in the exact same instance of knowing.

For example: good cannot be known without also knowing bad in the same instance of knowing.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 5151
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:01 am ...and there's the rub, much of what philosophy is all about never ceasing to be what it was always about. I wonder if ALL reference to god and truth were verboten what style of philosophy would emerge.
You have an odd orientation which I do not profess to understand. Or, if I understand it it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

I think the answer though, to your hypothetical, is that philosophy would only be able to concern itself with the 'facts'. It would no longer have any concern for 'wisdom' (of those types of wisdom generally understood in traditional cultures). It would become entirely utilitarian, wouldn't it? a branch of mechanics: reductionist materialism. It could not concern itself with any sort of 'principle' that was thought to exist above physical phenomena. And the physical world (what happens in nature) would be the only reference point. It would naturally tend, therefore, to a dismantling of established ethical principles (those which we live by and are anti-natural). It would have a hard time making any claim to knowledge or truth except the laws of physics and material relationships. Philosophy would then become, chiefly, a polemics against any particular set of assertions based in those 'principles' that are non-physical (metaphysical) intuited and in this sense non-rational.

Oh my. This is getting serious! What about The Goy's Teeth?!? 😁
AJ: If there is a foundation -- and this can only be in Ideas -- then the proposition is that this can be discovered, realized.
D: I don't think so. It can only be accepted as such in presuming to have discovered such a foundation.
Well there you have, of course, the essence of the division between our viewpoints. For you any articulation of any idea (everything that occurs as 'epiphenomena') is non-substantial. Or perhaps unverifiable. I think I see why you say this and to a degree I do agree.

I was thinking this morning that since there is, in nature (in the natural world and the world of the universe), nothing that would suggest any of the categories of wisdom-knowledge that I refer to (like *principles* of the sort defined through religious, philosophical and spiritual traditions), and the world absent humans and indeed universes and stellar systems and infinite space can only be approached through analysis of material relationships (no need of philosophy certainly), that in this sense you are right. And you will always be able to claim *rightness* if you hold to the 'material facts'.

Your view is that if some 'principle' that is by nature 'epiphenomenal' is recognized and valued that it could only come about through consensus of opinion. There is no such 'principle' that corresponds to a material phenomenon and thus no verification through measurement and instrumentation.

I doubt you would state that 'epiphenomena' is unreal however in effect. And since the epiphenomena that we are talking about is all of it human material, it all proceeds from man's psyche. But what proceeds from man's psyche is everything that has made our human world -- our world of values, our worlds of construction. All of these products, according to your view, are founded on subjective impressions or perhaps 'personal choices'. In your view there is no background principle that can be adduced. And if there is what is adduced is adduced simply by consensus of opinion.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

DaM

I
suppose what I am trying to say to you Nick, is a finger can point to every thing, but a finger can never point to the finger that is pointing.

(Every thing known) is No thing knowing. And No thing knowing is (Every thing known)...there are here only concepts known, in this conception, this conceptual story. Only concepts are known Nick, not the KNOWING that knows them. Knowing cannot know it is knowing because that would be like a finger being able to point to its own finger.
This is why you cannot understand Christianity. You deny the conscious experience of looking down and experiencing what we are and insist on looking up beyond the being of Man.

“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.” Simone Weil

This is not a concept. Christianity requires the ability to carry ones cross, to consciously experience suffering so one can transcend it. Some prefer to hide behind God concepts while others have felt the value of consciously and impartially experiencing ones suffering for the sake of of their own conscious evolution. It is what Christ achieved on the cross.

It is not something we can do since we are not ONE but many. It needs the help of the Holy Spirit to make it possible.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:35 pm DaM

I
suppose what I am trying to say to you Nick, is a finger can point to every thing, but a finger can never point to the finger that is pointing.

(Every thing known) is No thing knowing. And No thing knowing is (Every thing known)...there are here only concepts known, in this conception, this conceptual story. Only concepts are known Nick, not the KNOWING that knows them. Knowing cannot know it is knowing because that would be like a finger being able to point to its own finger.
This is why you cannot understand Christianity. You deny the conscious experience of looking down and experiencing what we are and insist on looking up beyond the being of Man.

“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.” Simone Weil

This is not a concept. Christianity requires the ability to carry ones cross, to consciously experience suffering so one can transcend it. Some prefer to hide behind God concepts while others have felt the value of consciously and impartially experiencing ones suffering for the sake of of their own conscious evolution. It is what Christ achieved on the cross.

It is not something we can do since we are not ONE but many. It needs the help of the Holy Spirit to make it possible.
Ok, I'm not entirely convinced or impressed, this is your story, it's something that is happening there in you. Therefore, I cannot take that away from you, and wouldn't dream of it.

But what is happening there in you, is not happening here in this one. The 'Simone Weil' quote has about as much appeal as a pile of dog poo for the one here, so not buying it. But thanks for another rather intriguing conceptual story. Many authors appear here, but there is only one reading writing no one ever writ.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:35 pm DaM

I
suppose what I am trying to say to you Nick, is a finger can point to every thing, but a finger can never point to the finger that is pointing.

(Every thing known) is No thing knowing. And No thing knowing is (Every thing known)...there are here only concepts known, in this conception, this conceptual story. Only concepts are known Nick, not the KNOWING that knows them. Knowing cannot know it is knowing because that would be like a finger being able to point to its own finger.
This is why you cannot understand Christianity. You deny the conscious experience of looking down and experiencing what we are and insist on looking up beyond the being of Man.

“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.” Simone Weil

This is not a concept. Christianity requires the ability to carry ones cross, to consciously experience suffering so one can transcend it. Some prefer to hide behind God concepts while others have felt the value of consciously and impartially experiencing ones suffering for the sake of of their own conscious evolution. It is what Christ achieved on the cross.

It is not something we can do since we are not ONE but many. It needs the help of the Holy Spirit to make it possible.
Ok, I'm not entirely convinced or impressed, this is your story, it's something that is happening there in you. Therefore, I cannot take that away from you, and wouldn't dream of it.

But what is happening there in you, is not happening here in this one. The 'Simone Weil' quote has about as much appeal as a pile of dog poo for the one here, so not buying it. But thanks for another rather intriguing conceptual story. Many authors appear here, but there is only one reading writing no one ever writ.
It remains a story for you until you try to verify it and experience that you cannot. It requires the need for truth and the will to carry one cross. That is why there are so few Christians.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:56 pm
It remains a story for you until you try to verify it and experience that you cannot. It requires the need for truth and the will to carry one cross. That is why there are so few Christians.
I think you are forgetting something here. No one ever asked to be born, so that they would be tortured to death, to be left to die in agony just so that they got to have a brief taste of living life...a price defintely not worth paying for.

Why would anyone want to pay to have themselves tortured like that unless they were a sadist.

Truth is no one asked to be born, because there is no one being born...if there is someone being born, then they would certainly know about it, and could perhaps decide it's a really dumb deal, and refrain from ever being born again, especially paying for it, I mean who would want to volunteer to pay for their own death by torture?
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:06 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:56 pm
It remains a story for you until you try to verify it and experience that you cannot. It requires the need for truth and the will to carry one cross. That is why there are so few Christians.
I think you are forgetting something here. No one ever asked to be born, so that they would be tortured to death, to be left to die in agony just so that they got to have a brief taste of living life...a price defintely not worth paying for.

Why would anyone want to pay to have themselves tortured like that unless they were a sadist.

Truth is no one asked to be born, because there is no one being born...if there is someone being born, then they would certainly know about it, and could perhaps decide it's a really dumb deal, and refrain from ever being born again, especially paying for it, I mean who would want to volunteer to pay for their own death by torture?
The universe is a machine essential for the threefold nature of its creator. The universe isn't here to serve life within it. Rather we are here to serve the necessity of of this great machine we call our universe. You don't have a choice in the matter. You do have a choice to serve mechanical animal life or human conscious life which Christianity seeks to awaken us to.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9561
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:16 pm The universe isn't here to serve life within it. Rather we are here to serve the necessity of of this great machine we call our universe.
I think it is more that we are a by-product of the prcesses that occur within the universe. We don't have a function, or a role to play, and the fact that we fall into the category of life, and possess consciousness, is of no interest to the universe.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Harbal wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:28 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:16 pm The universe isn't here to serve life within it. Rather we are here to serve the necessity of of this great machine we call our universe.
I think it is more that we are a by-product of the prcesses that occur within the universe. We don't have a function, or a role to play, and the fact that we fall into the category of life, and possess consciousness, is of no interest to the universe.
Nature actually fluked when consciousness became aware of itself as a separate self...because consciousness was then able to know it lives and dies. No intelligent creator would have intentionally chosen to act out this game of live to die, and die to live. In reality the universe has absolutely no concept of life or death, neither does it intentionally kill or murder potential life in favor of actual life...this knowledge is the by-product of a conscious living brain braining... that grew too big to contain itself as the whole living universe, so it had no other choice but to explode into millions of separate little parts of knowledge, aka conceptual things....things that then wanted to come together again in their desperation and despair of believing they were separate autonomous entities roaming aimlessly around an indifferent universe like headless chickens not knowing what or where they came from, and not knowing what to do with themselves except make up more stories.

How about that for a tall tale. :D

.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:16 pm
The universe is a machine essential for the threefold nature of its creator.
I'm sorry Nick, but a machine can never know it's creator.
Post Reply