Christianity

[iambiguous]

What you fail to understand, Immanuel, is that the ideas you communicate to people are defined in themselves as immensely consequential. You make the most astounding judgments about people and how they live. You undermine them existentially according to your whim. But you say "Not I but the Bible (and Jesus)"

Of course, what AJ himself refuses to fully address is the fact that the ideas he communicates here regarding a world in which the Northern European white stock is biologically, genetically superior to other races intellectually -- morally? -- have consequences too.

And, indeed, over and again he reminds us of a dire "demographic crisis" that is gripping nations like America. Only he won't actually walk the talk and suggest what exactly ought to be done to stem the tide of these inferior races.

Not believing in the Christian God, according to IC, can result in Eternal Damnation. But what of the fate of those who are sustaining the demographic crisis across the globe? What does AJ propose that ought to be?

[iambiguous]

No, I'm interested in how someone who embraces the point that they think he is making in the quote above would bring it "down to Earth" pertaining to the "conflicting goods" I noted above.

That's my "thing" here remember? Bringing general description philosophical assessments about the good life, virtue, justice and the pursuit of noble endeavors in the is/ought world down out of the clouds of abstraction and wrestling with them existentially.

Re AJ and race, IC and the Christian God, etc.: Where's the beef?

Though, sure, if some folks here have no interest in examining the existential parameters of the points they make, that's their prerogative. All I can do is to suggest just how limited the value of that is for actual flesh and blood men and women interested in how philosophy itself might actually be pertinent to the lives they live.

'Meditations' was written by a real guy wrestling with real problems. It's not a text by some academic philosopher.

But maybe it's not specific enough, not down out of the clouds enough, not existential enough.

You're the only one who knows what is appropriate for you.

Okay, then note some examples of him doing this in Meditations. What real problems relating to the moral quandaries of his own day.

And how would you imagine him reacting to the argument I make in the OP here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529

He is described as "a deeply spiritual person, and that fact comes across clearly in his Meditations" at the Traditional Stocism website.

A stoic and...

abortion
guns
capitalism
socialism
animal rights
capital punishment
gender roles
homosexuality
the role of government
social and economic justice
and on and on and on.

I'm not doing your work for you.

Read the book or read a few passages from the book or don't read the book.

Google his quotes. Make a 2 minute judgement.

Or don't do anything.

Absolutely shameless!!

[phyllo]

What's shameless is that you expect me to spoon feed you and then to clean up the mess when you barf on me.

[Gary Childress]

Right. If someone is happily agnostic, atheistic, or Buddhist you'd never try to undermine their sense of peace of mind with all your nonsense about going to hell.

Well, think of it this way; if my house was on fire, would you tell me? Would you risk ruining my happiness? Would you be afraid I might not like you if you told me? Would you fear to make me sad? Would you stay silent?

Or would you be a much worse person if you did not?

But the topic here is Christianity. Look above.

So all I'm telling you is what Christianity says. You may like it or not, and stay with the topic or pick a new one. But I'm certain you don't want me to start telling you polite lies instead of telling you the truth about what Christianity is, right?

I apologize then. It seems I'm out of line.

[Immanuel Can]

Right. If someone is happily agnostic, atheistic, or Buddhist you'd never try to undermine their sense of peace of mind with all your nonsense about going to hell.

Well, think of it this way; if my house was on fire, would you tell me? Would you risk ruining my happiness? Would you be afraid I might not like you if you told me? Would you fear to make me sad? Would you stay silent?

Or would you be a much worse person if you did not?

But the topic here is Christianity. Look above.

So all I'm telling you is what Christianity says. You may like it or not, and stay with the topic or pick a new one. But I'm certain you don't want me to start telling you polite lies instead of telling you the truth about what Christianity is, right?

I apologize then. It seems I'm out of line.

Gary, I like you. I've always treated you fairly. And you can count on me to continue that.

You've got stuff you struggle with, as you've said before. I'm sympathetic, and I'm not an enemy. We may have different views sometimes, but I hold nothing against you, either way. So just trust that, and we're good.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Of course, what AJ himself refuses to fully address is the fact that the ideas he communicates here regarding a world in which the Northern European white stock is biologically, genetically superior to other races intellectually -- morally? -- have consequences too.

The problem you have — how will you resolve it? or ‘fully address’ it? — is that unless my doppelgänger has been talking behind my back, I never said such a thing.

I do not think this much matters to you: you are an argument looking for an arena.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I apologize then. It seems I'm out of line.

We’ve reviewed your application for Roman Gladiator. Unfortunately, your lack of resolve renders you incompetent for the job’s requirements.

[iambiguous]

What's shameless is that you expect me to spoon feed you and then to clean up the mess when you barf on me.

You forgot this:

[iambiguous]

Of course, what AJ himself refuses to fully address is the fact that the ideas he communicates here regarding a world in which the Northern European white stock is biologically, genetically superior to other races intellectually -- morally? -- have consequences too.

The problem you have — how will you resolve it? or ‘fully address’ it? — is that unless my doppelgänger has been talking behind my back, I never said such a thing.

Well, in that case go into some detail regarding the components of the "demographic crisis" you speak of. What specially makes it a crisis?

You argue:

My review of the evidence, or of the arguments, points to some IQ differences between the large racial groups. So according to those studies the East Asians have a slightly higher average IQ than, say, the average European. They also say that on average the *sub-saharan Africans* have an even lower one than the Europeans.

And when I asked how much lower, you shrug that off with, "why does the exact number matter to you?"

Well, I suspect it matters considerably less to me than to those of the races that your "studies" argue are less intelligent "on average" than your own Northern European racial stock. In fact, how much lower in intelligence is the Southern European stock? Are they actually closer to the sub-saharan Africans than to the Northern Europeans?

And for those folks here who are members of these "on average" inferior races [intellectually], I think they might be very much interested in exploring the part where, for example, you do note the things that the Nazis got right and the things that they got wrong.

Also, the political policies those who do walk your talk might embrace in order to end the demographic crisis. What might the "on average" intellectually inferior folks expect in a community dominated by those of your ilk?

In other words, the part where your "theoretical assessment" here makes contact with the reality of actual human interactions...social, political and economic.

Though, again, yeah, I do acknowledge that this is what I myself always aim for: connecting the dots existentially between words and worlds.

If, instead, dueling definitions and deductions is more your thing then, okay, fine, we both just move on to others.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Well, in that case go into some detail regarding the components of the "demographic crisis" you speak of. What specially makes it a crisis?

So now you are assigning orders to me? “In that case” do thus and such?

(Do you remember what Dick Cavett said to Norman Mailer one time?)

Are you saying that you do not recognize that demographic crises exist? Or are you saying that it is wrong that demographic crises exist and one is aware of them?

Clearly the US is in the midst of a multi-layered crisis. Are you saying it is wrong to refer to this in any way?

AJ wrote: My review of the evidence, or of the arguments, points to some IQ differences between the large racial groups. So according to those studies the East Asians have a slightly higher average IQ than, say, the average European. They also say that on average the *sub-saharan Africans* have an even lower one than the Europeans.

Ah now I get it: you take issue with the fact that I reported to you what other people, who had or do engage in studies, have discovered? Am I right then to conclude that the wrong I committed was in making a reference to that? Is that where the moral wrong you are enraged about lies?

Did I actually ‘argue’ the point? As in ‘present in argument in favor of that viewpoint’? In fact I don’t think that that is an area to be concerned about.

But if any of these things are actually true — what then? Will you put a bullet in your head?

And when I asked how much lower, you shrug that off with, "why does the exact number matter to you?"

Yes, and I would ask you that question again: why does this matter to you? If Asians — as they say — have higher IQs on average than Europeans on average what is your reason for wanting to know how much?

A bit? A fraction? If I remember correctly thst is what it seemed to be.

If the datum is true — and I have no way to know if it is — what impact does it have on you? Are you upset that it is true or that someone is suggesting it is? Which is it? I have no feelings about it one way or the other. Though I did once say that the Japanese, because they invented sushi and other amazing dishes, deserve the right to ‘rule the world’. But now it seems their demographics are collapsing — they are not producing children and sushi can’t save them ….

And for those folks here who are members of these "on average" inferior races [intellectually], I think they might be very much interested in exploring the part where, for example, you do note the things that the Nazis got right and the things that they got wrong.

You mean the inferior Europeans in comparison to Asians ‘on average’? Maybe they cry themselves to sleep for all we know.

Folks? Your report please ….

But this Nazi concern is really your question, isn’t it? What then do you see the Nazis as having got right? Why do you ask me to answer a question that I have not expressed any interest in?

Though, again, yeah, I do acknowledge that this is what I myself always aim for: connecting the dots existentially between words and worlds.

More accurately you seem to be hopped-up and bordering into hysterical phantasy and projection.

I think that your concept of what you are aiming for is incomplete. It is neurotic projection of disturbed inner content and involves a need to find someone to pick a fight with that motivates you.

No? So that you can live out the frustration of the man John Fowles described in the paragraph you quote often. To burn in impotent frustration or something to that effect?

That must be terribly distressing. Any way to get over it?

[phyllo]

You referenced studies which found IQ differences linked to races.

That is not allowed.

[iambiguous]

Well, in that case go into some detail regarding the components of the "demographic crisis" you speak of. What specially makes it a crisis?

So now you are assigning orders to me? “In that case” do thus and such?

Are you saying that you do not recognize that demographic crises exist? Or are you saying that it is wrong that demographic crises exist and one is aware of them?

I'm not ordering you to do anything. I'm simply trying to grasp why you won't bring your theoretical conjectures regarding a demographic crisis down out of the clouds.

And, nope, I don't see any demographic crisis in America. Unless you count the concern that some note in regard to the over-all birth rate "flattening" or declining.

Is that your point? And you noting that the Northern European white stock having greater intelligence "on average" actually does not factor in at all in the crisis?

On the other hand, any number of folks on the right are warning us of the grim consequences of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_dem ... 0by%202045.

The crisis revolves precisely around race for them.

How about you? What in your view does the crisis revolve around?

Clearly the US is in the midst of a multi-layered crisis. Are you saying it is wrong to refer to this in any way?

Again, note the components of this.

And I have noted a number of times that, as with all value judgments of this sort, "I" am no less "fractured and fragmented" when it comes to race. I recognize that my own value judgments here are political prejudices and in no way would I argue that I can demonstrate that all rational men and women are obligated to think as I do. The sheer complexity of genes and memes intertwined in ever evolving historical and cultural contexts can make these things profoundly problematic. But the science that I have encountered over the years seems pretty convincing about intelligence and race. There does not appear to be any hierarchy with Northern Europeans on top and blacks on the bottom?

"On average"?

AJ wrote: My review of the evidence, or of the arguments, points to some IQ differences between the large racial groups. So according to those studies the East Asians have a slightly higher average IQ than, say, the average European. They also say that on average the *sub-saharan Africans* have an even lower one than the Europeans.

Ah now I get it: you take issue with the fact that I reported to you what other people, who had or do engage in studies, have discovered? Am I right then to conclude that the wrong I committed was in making a reference to that? Is that where the moral wrong you are enraged about lies?

Look, Mr. Wiggle, you personally either believe that your own race "on average" is intellectually superior to other races or you don't. You either include your views on race in the "demographic crisis" or you don't. You'll either note a list of policies you'd recommend to end the demographic crisis or you won't. In regard to personal relationships, education, employment and to other government actions.

And when I asked how much lower, you shrug that off with, "why does the exact number matter to you?"

And when I asked how much lower, you shrug that off with, "why does the exact number matter to you?"

Well, I suspect it matters considerably less to me than to those of the races that your "studies" argue are less intelligent "on average" than your own Northern European racial stock. In fact, how much lower in intelligence is the Southern European stock? Are they actually closer to the sub-saharan Africans than to the Northern Europeans?

Yes, and I would ask you that question again: why does this matter to you? If Asians — as they say — have higher IQs on average than Europeans on average what is your reason for wanting to know how much?

A bit? A fraction? If I remember correctly that is what it seemed to be.

Again, that is the question that they would be asking you. I don't believe that race is a factor in regard to intelligence. I'm only curious regarding how you do connect the dots existentially between whatever you believe about race, the demographic crisis and what you believe should done to end it.

And for those folks here who are members of these "on average" inferior races [intellectually], I think they might be very much interested in exploring the part where, for example, you do note the things that the Nazis got right and the things that they got wrong.

Also, the political policies those who do walk your talk might embrace in order to end the demographic crisis. What might the "on average" intellectually inferior folks expect in a community dominated by those of your ilk?

In other words, the part where your "theoretical assessment" here makes contact with the reality of actual human interactions...social, political and economic.

But this Nazi concern is really your question, isn’t it? What then do you see the Nazis as having got right? Why do you ask me to answer a question that I have not expressed any interest in?

Come on, whenever someone makes an argument that is derived in part from the ideas of those like Jensen and Shockley, re race and intelligence...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41065797
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

...any number of folks will connect those dots to the Final Solution.

I'm just curious to know how far down that path you might go if were in a position of power in any particular community. What might people of color and the Jews expect from you?

But: I don't deny that I may be completely wrong regarding how I interpret your posts here.

Though, again, yeah, I do acknowledge that this is what I myself always aim for: connecting the dots existentially between words and worlds.

As for this particular psycho-babble...

More accurately you seem to be hopped-up and bordering into hysterical phantasy and projection.

I think that your concept of what you are aiming for is incomplete. It is neurotic projection of disturbed inner content and involves a need to find someone to pick a fight with that motivates you.

No? So that you can live out the frustration of the man John Fowles described in the paragraph you quote often. To burn in impotent frustration or something to that effect?

That must be terribly distressing. Any way to get over it?

Sure, make this all about me.

And the Fowles quote revolves around the manner in which I am myself "fractured and fragmented" in regard to moral and political value judgments. And in my belief that in a No God world my own existence itself is essentially meaningless and purposeless.

[iambiguous]

You referenced studies which found IQ differences linked to races.

That is not allowed.

Of course, it's allowed. Here. But when you make arguments that intellectually -- culturally? morally? -- there is a racial hierarchy, those who are not of the race that you put on top are going to wonder what their fate might be if you are in a position of power in their community. Given the historical instances of this.

How about you? What's your own take on race and intelligence? What particular policies would you pursue given that?

[tillingborn]

I'm just saying we all tend to assume people think the same way we do about things, and tend to do them for the same reasons we would.

Maybe this is why Immanuel judges others as he does. He knows what he would be if he were not on the path he has chosen.

He might as well tattoo 'I project' on his forehead. The extraordinary thing is that he can say this on a forum where nobody thinks the same way as he does.

[phyllo]

Of course, it's allowed. Here.

No.
Therefore the distorted reactions, the gratuitous Nazi references, the implied racism and racist policies. Even before anything is said.

But when you make arguments that intellectually -- culturally? morally? -- there is a racial hierarchy, those who are not of the race that you put on top are going to wonder what their fate might be if you are in a position of power in their community. Given the historical instances of this.

Notice the race put on top in these studies is Asians. But the boogeyman that's brought out is white people. You don't ask AJ "What will happen if Asians are in a position of power? ". You ask about "Northern Europeans".
Again demonizing white men.

What's your own take on race and intelligence?

Averages don't tell me anything about individuals and their abilities. Average IQ of races is a pretty worthless measurement.

What particular policies would you pursue given that?

I believe in color blindness. I would eliminate all programs which take race into consideration. That includes affirmative action programs, of course.