Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:25 pm There is no way to make everyone rich.
But there is a way to make many, many, people much more wealthy than they are.

Sustainable microenterprise. It's one of the amazing stories of the 20th Century. It's a huge success. it could well eliminate world poverty almost entirely, if it were adopted everywhere.

But Socialists hate it, because it emphasizes the wise use of capital, individual initiative, private ownership, fiscal responsibility, and most importantly to them, independence from government. That puts it out of range for the Socialist "social engineers," so they'd much rather it failed.

As Orwell said, Socialists don't love the poor; they just hate the rich.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:20 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:25 pm There is no way to make everyone rich.
But there is a way to make many, many, people much more wealthy than they are.

Sustainable microenterprise. It's one of the amazing stories of the 20th Century. It's a huge success. it could well eliminate world poverty almost entirely, if it were adopted everywhere.

But Socialists hate it, because it emphasizes the wise use of capital, individual initiative, private ownership, fiscal responsibility, and most importantly to them, independence from government. That puts it out of range for the Socialist "social engineers," so they'd much rather it failed.

As Orwell said, Socialists don't love the poor; they just hate the rich.
The issue was whether or not there was some social/political method or program that could level the difference between the rich and the poor, not if there was a way for individuals to have more wealth. Your, "sustainable microenterprise," might enable some individuals to produce products and generate personal wealth thereby, but its not something any government can foist on people by some program. It has been tried, of course, but seldom has any long-term success, like India's attempt to protect its, "sustainable microenterprises," (i.e. cottage industries), which was (and is) an economic disaster.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 pm ...level the difference between the rich and the poor...
Well, that question is just petty and envious, I would say. It's not even worth answering, really.

What do you say to somebody if they think, as you said earlier, making everybody "equally poor" is a solution? :shock: Only that their envy has outrun their sense, I think.
Your, "sustainable microenterprise,"
Look into it. That is, if you actually care about improving the lot of the poor. If not, continue as you are.

Sustainable microenterprise is the future. And not only does it need no "government protection," it doesn't even involve the government, except on the point of them allowing it to exist, which is always to their advantage anyway.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 pm ...level the difference between the rich and the poor...
Well, that question is just petty and envious, I would say. It's not even worth answering, really.

What do you say to somebody if they think, as you said earlier, making everybody "equally poor" is a solution? :shock: Only that their envy has outrun their sense, I think.
That is exactly the point I'm making! But here you are doing the very same thing.

Every social engineer has some economic view they think will save the world or make everyone happy and prosperous if it will just be implemented. Some think it can be put over by means of propaganda and, "educating," others and as soon as everyone sees how wonderful it is they will run out and start doing it like, "Sustainable microenterprise," or, "voluntarianism," or even, "libertarian free enterprise." None of these idea are new but they will never be embraced because they require individuals to choose them and no one wants to give up what they regard as the economic security a government promises. At least the statists, socialists and communist have a method of implementing their schemes, though we both already know won't work.
Your, "sustainable microenterprise,"
Look into it. That is, if you actually care about improving the lot of the poor. If not, continue as you are.

Sustainable microenterprise is the future. And not only does it need no "government protection," it doesn't even involve the government, except on the point of them allowing it to exist, which is always to their advantage anyway.[/quote]

"Sustainable microenterprise is the future." Is that prophecy? If it is, there is no reason to promote it. If it isn't, all the promotion in the word won't make it happen. The right attitude toward all economic schemes and religion is Gamaliel's. If its true nothing will stop it. If it's false, nothing will make it work.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:04 pm ...level the difference between the rich and the poor...
Well, that question is just petty and envious, I would say. It's not even worth answering, really.

What do you say to somebody if they think, as you said earlier, making everybody "equally poor" is a solution? :shock: Only that their envy has outrun their sense, I think.
That is exactly the point I'm making!
Yess.....did you not know I was supporting your view, in this case? :shock:
"Sustainable microenterprise,"...they will never be embraced because they require individuals to choose them
This has already proved untrue.

I really don't think you know what microenterprise is. I say that because you seem to think it's a "government" scheme, or some kind of "engineering." It's not. It's supportive of individual initiative and responsibility, and involves no larger controls from above. It's an empowerment plan for the poor, giving them tools and opportunities...not a "controling" plan.

If you care, research it.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:54 pm I really don't think you know what microenterprise is. I say that because you seem to think it's a "government" scheme, or some kind of "engineering." It's not.
Then you'd be wrong. I know what it is supposed to be (and there are several varieties of such schemes). I carefully pointed out that I group all such idea as supposedly non-government, like "Voluntarianism," [voluntaryism], or even, "libertarian free enterprise," which are also non-government economic schemes. I was only pointing out that any economic method has to be promoted and, "supported," in some way.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:54 pm If you care, research it.
There is nothing stopping individuals from pursuing their personal initiative to produce a product or service and to market it. It's called entrepreneurship and includes most cottage industries, from raising chickens to weaving material and other mostly, "craft," type work. It hardly requires great research. There is nothing new about it except a lot of new, "charities," that have sprung up to promote the idea. [And I'm quite familiar with claims that 500 million small farmers supply 70% of the world's food supply, an irrelevant claim frequently made by those promoting microenterprise. If they're already doing that, why is some program, private or otherwise, need to make them do it?]

Don't misunderstand. I have no objection to entrepreneurship or even to those do-gooders and academics taking advantage of it by giving it a fancy name, like, "sustainable microenterprise," and raising money to promote this old idea as though it were something new and wonderful. It's just never going to change anything economically except for the drain on real wealth, time, and effort, the promotion takes. There are much worse things in this world.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:52 pm I was only pointing out that any economic method has to be promoted and, "supported," in some way.
When it becomes "sustainable," by definition, it doesn't.
There is nothing stopping individuals from pursuing their personal initiative to produce a product or service and to market it.

:lol: Oh,my...

You're SO "First World." :lol:

My dear fellow, you have no idea of how many impediments there are between the honest poor and any kind of sustainable income. One is literacy and numeracy, which they neither have nor can afford. Another is that many of them live on less than $1 USD per day, and are barely surviving. Another is business skills, which are not innate. Another is the total indifference of the major banks. Another is their inability to show ownership, even if they have a bicycle or a scrap of land. Many have no collateral, no identity, no education, no opportunity, no liquidity, no assets, no skills, poor health, bad sanitation, no solid roof above and no clean floor beneath, and often not even good drinking water...but all of these, with a little help and an opportunity, can become the kind of things you imagine. But not without help.

You really must get out of the house once in awhile. It would do you a world of good to visit somewhere that does not have instant access to these things.

You would realize how funny that last statement you made actually is...though nobody who's suffering it is laughing along. It's the kind of thing that only a spoiled Westerner could ever imagine, let alone write.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:02 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:52 pm I was only pointing out that any economic method has to be promoted and, "supported," in some way.
When it becomes "sustainable," by definition, it doesn't.
There is nothing stopping individuals from pursuing their personal initiative to produce a product or service and to market it.

:lol: Oh,my...

You're SO "First World." :lol:

My dear fellow, you have no idea of how many impediments there are between the honest poor and any kind of sustainable income. One is literacy and numeracy, which they neither have nor can afford. Another is that many of them live on less than $1 USD per day, and are barely surviving. Another is business skills, which are not innate. Another is the total indifference of the major banks. Another is their inability to show ownership, even if they have a bicycle or a scrap of land. Many have no collateral, no identity, no education, no opportunity, no liquidity, no assets, no skills, poor health, bad sanitation, no solid roof above and no clean floor beneath, and often not even good drinking water...but all of these, with a little help and an opportunity, can become the kind of things you imagine. But not without help.

You really must get out of the house once in awhile. It would do you a world of good to visit somewhere that does not have instant access to these things.

You would realize how funny that last statement you made actually is...though nobody who's suffering it is laughing along. It's the kind of thing that only a spoiled Westerner could ever imagine, let alone write.
Christian Aid is an example of a charity that helps people such as women in certain African countries to be trained and start up as makers and traders. This charity has a good reputation for wise spending and honesty.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 pm Christian Aid is an example of a charity that helps people such as women in certain African countries to be trained and start up as makers and traders. This charity has a good reputation for wise spending and honesty.
"Opportunity International" is another excellent one. And it serves people of all religions and none.

That's Capitalism, actually. But it's Capitalism turned to the purpose of getting people out of poverty. It's sustainable, super-effective, and most importantly of all, gives dignity to the people it serves, whom it knows and treats as "clients," and "partners," not "handout-takers" or "victims." 85% of those helped are women, most with children, so it's woman-friendly and the best kind of charity for children. It ends poverty in a family within a single generation, and forever, by empowing the personal ambitions of the clients and putting them back in charge of their lives.

It's absolutely amazing. Why this is not the majority of the charitable work being done in the world, I do not know. It should be.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:54 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:42 pm Christian Aid is an example of a charity that helps people such as women in certain African countries to be trained and start up as makers and traders. This charity has a good reputation for wise spending and honesty.
"Opportunity International" is another excellent one. And it serves people of all religions and none.

That's Capitalism, actually. But it's Capitalism turned to the purpose of getting people out of poverty. It's sustainable, super-effective, and most importantly of all, gives dignity to the people it serves, whom it knows and treats as "clients," and "partners," not "handout-takers" or "victims." 85% of those helped are women, most with children, so it's woman-friendly and the best kind of charity for children. It ends poverty in a family within a single generation, and forever, by empowing the personal ambitions of the clients and putting them back in charge of their lives.

It's absolutely amazing. Why this is not the majority of the charitable work being done in the world, I do not know. It should be.
I don't think of small business enterprises as examples of capitalism.Honest trading is as old as the hills in human history and has been and still is a channel for peace and prosperity. Usury , not trade, is the beginning of capitalism.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/usury

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." Matthew
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:01 pm I don't think of small business enterprises as examples of capitalism.
That's exactly what they are, though. They are ways to create capital, through private ownership.

"Usury" is debt. "Capital" is "surplus value." Even Marx knew that.
Belinda
Posts: 8035
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:01 pm I don't think of small business enterprises as examples of capitalism.
That's exactly what they are, though. They are ways to create capital, through private ownership.

"Usury" is debt. "Capital" is "surplus value." Even Marx knew that.
In the Middle Ages the attitude of the church to usury means that capitalism has little chance of developing. Even so, this is the period in which its roots lie.

With the rapid development of European trade and prosperity in the 13th century, cities in Italy and the Netherlands witness a creation of wealth which is capitalist in kind - because any merchant is in essence a capitalist, risking his pot of money each time he buys in one place to sell in another.

Florence in the 14th century demonstrates more familiar indications of capitalism. It has its great banking families, engaging in transactions across the breadth of Europe. It even has a successful strike, by underpaid day workers in the cloth industry who want a share in the benefits enjoyed by their employers.

Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/pla ... ixzz78d8eh
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:01 pm I don't think of small business enterprises as examples of capitalism.
That's exactly what they are, though. They are ways to create capital, through private ownership.

"Usury" is debt. "Capital" is "surplus value." Even Marx knew that.
And you replied:
Belinda wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:25 pm"any merchant is in essence a capitalist."
Ummm... :shock:

That's just what I said. Microenterprise creates merchants. They're capitalists. And it's a great thing that they are.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:02 pm
My dear fellow, you have no idea of how many impediments there are between the honest poor and any kind of sustainable income. One is literacy and numeracy, which they neither have nor can afford. Another is that many of them live on less than $1 USD per day, and are barely surviving. Another is business skills, which are not innate. Another is the total indifference of the major banks. Another is their inability to show ownership, even if they have a bicycle or a scrap of land. Many have no collateral, no identity, no education, no opportunity, no liquidity, no assets, no skills, poor health, bad sanitation, no solid roof above and no clean floor beneath, and often not even good drinking water...but all of these, with a little help and an opportunity, can become the kind of things you imagine. But not without help.

You really must get out of the house once in awhile. It would do you a world of good to visit somewhere that does not have instant access to these things.

You would realize how funny that last statement you made actually is...though nobody who's suffering it is laughing along. It's the kind of thing that only a spoiled Westerner could ever imagine, let alone write.
Life is tough.

Are you talking about retarded people? Unless there is some kind of mental defect, anyone who really wants to can learn to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. It doesn't cost money to read and write--just hard work.

You need to read a little about US history, and those many slaves and ex-slaves or early settlers of the West who learned those things, many entirely on their own, though most easily found others who would gladly teach them their, "letters," and, "numbers." If you read some of the less romanticized histories you'll discover there were many who had nothing at all, not even one change of clothing, no money, no tools, only the willingness to do whatever it took to make something of themselves. No one had to provide them sanitation, they learned how to clean up themselves. No one had to provide them, "a roof over their head," they learned how to build their own shelter. No one else had to feed them, they learned how to hunt, grow, and prepare their own food.

Do you have any idea how many billions of dollars have been sent to Africa and the Middle East to provide those poor indigent deprived people with education, food, clothing, tools, machinery, financing, and training? It doesn't work, because they won't work, and most of them won't work because they are ignorant and superstitious believing their gods, or nature, or their government or stupid suckers who actually earn their money will send it to them to take of them.

There is not a single thing you call an, "impediment," you claim prevents individuals from making something of themselves that others have not only endured, but completely overcame, often achieving more the those who never knew such difficulties. Your sentimental desire to, "help," those who do not make a successful effort to help themselves is an insult to all those who have succeeded without your help, and would have refused it if offered.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22281
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:42 pm Are you talking about retarded people? Unless there is some kind of mental defect, anyone who really wants to can learn to read, write, and do simple arithmetic. It doesn't cost money to read and write--just hard work.
Oh, dear...it gets worse. :roll:

RC, we're talking about people in the Developing World. I'm afraid you're going to have to leave your First-World bubble to find out how sadly wrong you are. Corrupt governments, constant wars, few schools, no money, no sanitation, theft, death, dirt, and a daily struggle for survival that you cannot possibly imagine...unless you've been there. And the people who suffer are ordinary folks like you and me, but who have grown up without advantages, and have no way of knowing how to get any, or what to do if they had them. Yet, if you give them one crack of hope, they leap through it, and take it with an industry and devotion that none of our spoiled, First World brats ever seem to have.

But you have to see it to believe it.

Go visit Haiti, or Colombia, or Kenya...meet those people. While you're there, do something to help them out. Then tell me how everybody there is just a lazy fool, like you imply.
Post Reply