Christianity

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Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:31 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:50 am Simone Weil wrote" "That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.
Maybe it's because I don't know the context in which that was written that I don't understand what is being said here. While truth and justice etc. all seem like desireable things, they don't have much meaning spoken of in the abstract. Can you explain what Simone Weil was thinking of when she wrote this, and something about what she meant by it?
Harbal and Mike

That excerpt was taken from Simone Weil's "The Need for Roots" written as she was near death concerning a transcendent and universal moral law, and describes the social responsibilities that accompany it.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html

Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation
Profession of Faith

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.

Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.

Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.

Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.

That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men............................................
She asserts that unless a person psychologically turns with the whole of themselves towards the light they remain emotionally unaware of human purpose; the obligations which makes rights possible.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 pm Harbal and Mike

That excerpt was taken from Simone Weil's "The Need for Roots" written as she was near death concerning a transcendent and universal moral law, and describes the social responsibilities that accompany it.
Thanks, Nick. I've read some of it, and, in as much as I understand it, which is not a great deal, I have to say that Simone Weil's veiw of what is potential in all human beings is mistaken. Simone Weil was a very unusual person, and whatever was present in her that led her to write what she did is, in my opinion, absent in most of us. That's not to say that we shouldn't try to be as "good" as we are able, but very few of us will come anywhere near to what Simone Weil was asking for.

I'm afraid that Simone Weil must have had a much higher opinion of the human race than I do.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:04 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:49 pm
Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:15 pm

You can go wherever you like in your imagination, Nick, but just make sure you are back in time to haul yourself out of bed and get to work.
Do you have a better explanation for the purpose of the soul? Some feel that there must be a purpose for the universe and our lives within it. Others deny it. I'm one of the minority who contemplates purpose introduced by others in the past and verify it for myself through deductive reason. I've found these people are far more intelligent then those lost in denial. To each his own.
Nick says "purpose of the soul". Psychologically ,purpose is synonymous with goal or meaning.

Goal, purpose, meaning is both intellect or affect, or both. While one can presume man is by far the most purposive (or goal-seeking) animal , other animals and plants need no purposes (or goals) because they already and invariably act , feel, and think as they biologically are, and therefore have no need of goals, purposes, and meanings.

Harbal says like imagination is the same as fantasy, but that is not true. Imagination is necessary for the best conduct of any task from the lowest status task to the highest status task. Imagination, unlike fantasy, encompasses reason.
Matthew 6:25-34
American Standard Version
25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment? 26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto [a]the measure of his life? 28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Life on earth has no meaning. Together it is a machine serving the necessary purpose of transforming substances. Because of the fall of man, its purpose is unique on earth. It has the potential for conscious evolution revealing a higher purpose than just being a machine serving the earth. It can acquire a soul.

Where Buddhism suggests no soul and Man made Christendom asserts a fully developed soul, I believe Man contains the "seed of the soul":

"The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God." Meister Eckhart


Man has the potential through a mature soul to become "a son of God"; God in creation or at a lower level of existence uniting above and below.. Yet the world in darkness must struggle against it so in reality, only a few are capable of it. Good seeds are saved while the rest are no more. Who can learn the meaning of the Crucifixion and Resurrection in the cause of conscious evolution and why Christ had to die?
bobmax
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Re: Christianity

Post by bobmax »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html
Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
Yes, but since the recognition of the insoluble contradiction implies conscious anguish, then, if one does not have sufficient faith in the Truth, one ignores the contradiction.

Thought hits the insuperable limit but pretends nothing has happened, folds carelessly, as if the limit did not exist.

Lack of faith makes you miss the opportunity.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:42 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 pm Harbal and Mike

That excerpt was taken from Simone Weil's "The Need for Roots" written as she was near death concerning a transcendent and universal moral law, and describes the social responsibilities that accompany it.
Thanks, Nick. I've read some of it, and, in as much as I understand it, which is not a great deal, I have to say that Simone Weil's veiw of what is potential in all human beings is mistaken. Simone Weil was a very unusual person, and whatever was present in her that led her to write what she did is, in my opinion, absent in most of us. That's not to say that we shouldn't try to be as "good" as we are able, but very few of us will come anywhere near to what Simone Weil was asking for.

I'm afraid that Simone Weil must have had a much higher opinion of the human race than I do.
You've raised an important question. Is collective life in the darkness of Plato' Cave a product of our being and something we are born with, or is it a learned quality? Simone learned by experience from her time as a celebrated Marxist, that humanity would endure the horrors of cave life and no amount of wonderful thoughts could change it. Her natural transition to Christianity inspired by Plato offered another alternative.

"Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace." Simone Weil

Here, in a nutshell, she describes why communism and humanism are destined to fail. The human condition assures failure by denying grace.

What if our species could open to the higher energy of grace making humanity as a whole aware of obligations through the psychologically nourishing light of grace? But we have our doubts. :) The need to profit from corruption is too strong. Contemplating this IMO is real philosophy.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

bobmax wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:22 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html
Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
Yes, but since the recognition of the insoluble contradiction implies conscious anguish, then, if one does not have sufficient faith in the Truth, one ignores the contradiction.

Thought hits the insuperable limit but pretends nothing has happened, folds carelessly, as if the limit did not exist.

Lack of faith makes you miss the opportunity.
True. It is only through imagination that makes contradiction tolerable
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

bobmax wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:22 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:44 pm https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html
Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
Yes, but since the recognition of the insoluble contradiction implies conscious anguish, then, if one does not have sufficient faith in the Truth, one ignores the contradiction.

Thought hits the insuperable limit but pretends nothing has happened, folds carelessly, as if the limit did not exist.

Lack of faith makes you miss the opportunity.
True, without faith in the potential for something more than enduring internal contradiction, we just slip back into forgetting. The problem seems to be remembering faith with the help of the Spirit leading to freedom.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:50 pm
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
How can the one who does not see life experience any wrath being directed at him?
Well, you have to read the context, the other verses before and after, to get the answer to that.

[Jesus answered Nicodemus] “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”

"Life," in this context, is permanent, eternal life, as you can see (underline, above). Nicodemus, who has come to Christ, has asked him about how to get it. Jesus is answering.

To not "see life" refers not to temporal life, which is actually just a slow procession toward death, but eternal life. And it's that Nicodemus wanted to "see," and that which Jesus was promising to him.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:46 am
[Jesus answered Nicodemus] “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”
What a crap-load of loathsome, disgusting propaganda. The description and desperation of a pathetic god who pleads to be believed in! What does it even mean to be "believed in"? What are we obliged to believe in order to be saved! And what about all the others who lived and never had a chance of believing in poor pathetic Jesus. What happens to them? What about the majority of Jews who decided to remain Jewish instead of converting to Christianity?

This quote, when considered rightly, reeks with pure prejudice and hate. It's a threat, an overt judgment against those who refuse to succumb to an inherently evil command, one that couldn't be more despicable coming from a supposed god. The NT is an ancient version of Mein Kampf...a total misrepresentation and distortion of what may normally be considered even remotely enlightened.
Last edited by Dubious on Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:57 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:46 am [Jesus answered Nicodemus] “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”
What does it even mean to be "believed in"? What are we obliged to believe in order to be saved!
All you have to do is read, and you have the answers to those questions.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:32 am
What does it even mean to be "believed in"? What are we obliged to believe in order to be saved!
All you have to do is read, and you have the answers to those questions.
You really haven't got a clue yourself have you! You just quote and because it's from the bible that in itself finalizes it. It's "ultimate truths" never need to be examined even if it's full of holes, contradictions and an extremely dubious morality. The bible is its own arbiter. The sacred, or anything which appears so and accepted, ought never to be questioned. In that respect, you are one of the true Christian Soldiers, that is, one of its remaining medieval remnants.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:47 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:32 am
What does it even mean to be "believed in"? What are we obliged to believe in order to be saved!
All you have to do is read, and you have the answers to those questions.
You just quote and because it's from the bible that in itself finalizes it.
You asked. The answers are there.

That you don't like them? That's fine: your approval is not required. That's on you, not on anybody else.

But now you know.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:46 am
Lacewing wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:39 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:50 pm
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
(John 3:36)
How can the one who does not see life experience any wrath being directed at him?
Well, you have to read the context, the other verses before and after, to get the answer to that.

To not "see life" refers not to temporal life, which is actually just a slow procession toward death, but eternal life. And it's that Nicodemus wanted to "see," and that which Jesus was promising to him.
What I'm pointing out is that there's nothing to have wrath against after life, since one who doesn't obey the Son will apparently not have eternal life.

The nonsense and manipulative efforts of the minds of men are seen all throughout the bible. It is absurd to put so much value in it as the definitive source of God's word. Anybody can make such a claim of a book for their own purposes, and indeed that's what many have done! God wouldn't need a freakin' book penned by men to communicate! C'mon! That makes no sense. It's beyond bizarre that anyone still caters to such an idea today.

I agree with Dubious. You show no interest or ability in seeing the gaping holes and archaic fabrications in the bible. Because, of course, if you did, your whole self-serving platform would be highlighted for yourself as it already is for other people. That could be beneficial for you... but ego and control are apparently more important... and you will defend it even though it's madness to do so.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:50 am What I'm pointing out is that there's nothing to have wrath against after life, since one who doesn't obey the Son will apparently not have eternal life.
They get what the Bible calls "the second death." (Rev. 20) It lasts forever.

Again, if you read the Bible, you'll find that out. And again, your personal approval is not required. Nobody's asking you what you like; God's telling you how it's going to be, like it or not.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:56 am God's telling you how it's going to be, like it or not.
Your version of God is not God for other people. Get over yourself.
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