Christianity

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Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:21 pm
What a ridiculous argument. It's as if you have no understanding of the documentation of history whatsoever.
There are any number of historical figures for whom either there are no or few extant copies of what they wrote themselves. Only copies of what others said they wrote - often having been written years later. They are still talked about and considered to be their thoughts and words. This is especially true of figures from ancient history. Where's the sense in you mindlessly parroting a ridiculous argument that holds no water?
What you say is true regarding historical figures. But had you considered further you would have noticed a huge distinction re historical figures. We are interested in their culture, their philosophic thoughts and perspectives of reality. It's part of our heritage with no compulsion to agree with any of it but nevertheless culturally valuable subject to analysis and scholarship.

Not so when considering the god equation whose conditions are absolute and for all time especially as regards eternal life. The gospels which attempt to engender belief in Jesus as the one true and only guide to salvation belongs to a very different category in relation to 'other' historical figures. One does not question what is presumed to be divinely spoken...interpreted perhaps but never negated.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:42 pmSo, now, you have a fuller context. And you know what Christians understand by it, and why they understand it that way. Is there really an alternate reading available from the context of that verse? If there is, I'm interested to know what it would be. And I'd sincerely like to hear it explained, because it's not at all obvious to me what other way one would go with that reading.
You are absolutely right: there is no 'alternative reading' possible.
But when examined with a critical eye, and a critical intellectual perspective, it can be seen, and in my view should be seen, as expressing essential Hebrew Idea Imperialism.
You'll have to show that. What, in specific, is "imperial" in that quotation?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:53 pm Great. Tell us exactly what (you think) it is.
When you say "tell us" are you acting as the group's enlisted interrogator? Shouldn't you say 'tell me'?

You want me to tell you what Occidental paideia is? What exactly are you asking?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:58 pm You'll have to show that. What, in specific, is "imperial" in that quotation?
Wait, do you not understand what the term Hebrew idea imperialism refers to? Are you saying that it is incomprehensible to you?
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:59 pm You want me to tell you what Occidental paideia is? What exactly are you asking?
I don't know what it is, but I think I may have a recipe for it in one of my Nigella Lawson cookery books. :|
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:59 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:53 pm Great. Tell us exactly what (you think) it is.
You want me to tell you what Occidental paideia is? What exactly are you asking?
( :shock: Am I speaking English? I was sure I was.)

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. What do you think "Occidental paideia" consists of?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:04 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:59 pm You want me to tell you what Occidental paideia is? What exactly are you asking?
I don't know what it is, but I think I may have a recipe for it in one of my Nigella Lawson cookery books. :|
Sounds like a fish pie of some sort. :wink:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:00 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:58 pm You'll have to show that. What, in specific, is "imperial" in that quotation?
Wait, do you not understand what the term Hebrew idea imperialism refers to? Are you saying that it is incomprehensible to you?
No, I just want you to refer specifically to the quotation, and show me what evidence of "Hebrew imperialism" you think you see in it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:05 pm What do you think "Occidental paideia" consists of?
I do not have to *think* of it as consisting of what it is comprised of, as if it is a matter of belief. That's your depertment Immanuel.

I presented you with a reference to Jaeger's works in three volumes. You can examine the indexes and you can yourself very easily then understand what Occidental paideia refers to. There are definitions such as this one that can help you. A journey of a thousand miles begins with taking the first step Immanuel! 😂

Here is another good one but in Spanish. You might be able to work your way through it or drop it in Google translate.

But here is the key: You are not interested. And you are not interested because you are only interested in one thing. And that is your specific Christian preaching.

Make sense?

Have I provided enough information for you to begin to understand? What more do you need?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:06 pm No, I just want you to refer specifically to the quotation, and show me what evidence of "Hebrew imperialism" you think you see in it.
You will first need to grasp what Hebrew idea imperialism refers to. Is the idea, the phrase, in and of itself unintelligible to you?

I think it is quite comprehensible to most who write here. Is it not to you? What is it that is not comprehensible?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:05 pm What do you think "Occidental paideia" consists of?
I do not have to *think* of it as consisting of what it is comprised of, as if it is a matter of belief. That's your depertment Immanuel.

I presented you with a reference to Jaeger's works in three volumes.
No. YOUR idea. I don't want Jaeger's, because I've already observed how often you "understand" things quite differently from people you claim support you. I have no assurance at all that yours is Jaegers.

If you understand it, you can say. If you can't, you can't.
Have I provided enough information for you to begin to understand? What more do you need?
YOUR view. Not Jaeger's.

And I want you to show me the "imperalism" in the quotation we were discussing. You're not even addressing that request, so far.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:24 pm ...
My idea is virtually identical with the description here.

I do not think anything more need be added. Except that when I refer to recovery and renovation I refer to regaining and revaluing what is essential in our traditions.

Work with tis definition offered.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:24 pm And I want you to show me the "imperalism" in the quotation we were discussing.
No, you will have to make the effort to understand what the phrase Hebrew idea imperialism refers to generally, as an aspect easily located in Hebrew and Christian declarations. I cannot do this work for you. You will have to engage with the effort yourself.

What is non-intelligible to you?
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:05 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:04 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:59 pm You want me to tell you what Occidental paideia is? What exactly are you asking?
I don't know what it is, but I think I may have a recipe for it in one of my Nigella Lawson cookery books. :|
Sounds like a fish pie of some sort. :wink:
Most of what Alexis talks about sounds fishy. :wink:
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Here is a Google translation of the first paragraph in the Spanish reference to paideia:
Paideia is a classical Greek term used to designate the scope of total formation of an individual for an organic development within his society. This concept, as important as logos or psyche, is the object of study in the work of Werner Jaeger which is precisely entitled Paideia: the ideals of Greek culture. The four volumes of the work, in its original German, were published separately from 1933 and would not see the light of day in a single volume in Spanish until 1957. The text studies in detail the origin, development and crystallization of this educational concept without removing it from the social and temporal fabric to which it belonged. This implies taking into account the influence and mutation of spiritual, moral and philosophical notions that cannot be fully perceived only from a modern conception. Jaeger's analysis is based on the assumption that every organized civilization, by becoming self-aware, begins to create a series of mechanisms and educational knowledge to make its cultural heritage endure and maintain its social order. Thus, the characteristic feature of ancient Greek culture was that it was the only civilization that coined such a specific term as paideia to refer to this formation, not only intellectual but holistic, because it crosses the physical and spiritual aspects while being integrated into all the spheres of human life. This perspective of a harmony between the human being, his individual actions and the cosmos that surrounds him will be a cornerstone for the building of Western culture. Jaeger's rigorous study is not intended to remain a historical account; The author's ambition is to use the resources of philology, which Jaeger judges as a scientific discipline, to bring us closer to the highest and most universal concepts of Greek education and update them, since he considers them pertinent and alive.
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