Christianity

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Gary Childress
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Re: Christianity

Post by Gary Childress »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:29 am
Lacewing wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:14 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:01 pm
They are not, actually...not in any country in the world. If you believe that, then you are only speaking about nominalism, clearly.
From Wikipedia: Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the United States. Estimates from 2017 suggest that between 65% and 75% of the US population is Christian (about 230 to 250 million). More recent estimates from 2021 suggest that 63% of the US population is Christian (about 210 million).

The point I was trying to make is that Christianity has become far more accepted and common than at the time the Bible was written, so your claims of being hated for it based on archaic claims/beliefs are a bit out-of-date and unrealistic. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly in the present moment, it's your warped presentation that brings out the responses you get. The fact that you glorify yourself further for that, shows the bottomless extent of your intoxication. :D
Christendom has become far more accepted and common but Christianity has become less accepted and rare so much so that its pure form survives hidden from the world.
Sounds like perhaps a "no true Scottsman" fallacy to me.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:45 am My heart goes out to the minority whose need for meaning transcends what the world offers. They live between two worlds and must suffer this condition. They have the potential for something far greater
This is the only world that I know of so I either have to get what I need here or go without it. I think it's a pretty wonderful place, actually, and I only wish that I wasn't too lazy to take full advantage of what it has to offer.
Last edited by Harbal on Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

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Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Harbal wrote:
Don't keep doing this, IC. It is not a choice; whatever people have in them that attracts them to religion is glaringly conspicuous by its absence in me.
You do seem to hold to your previously expressed opinion that you have no need for meaning.

Yet you show bright gaps in your blackout curtains. Sorry I can't remember specific examples from your posts but you do have a developed moral sensibility. Maybe you have an overly restricted view of the nature of religion.

I have not read as much Barbara Pym as you but she is actually sympathetic towards all her characters. She would get on well with Heidegger. Religion is a many headed beast.
popeye1945
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Re: Christianity

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Cerberus, the multi-headed hound of hell-----lol!!!
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Belinda wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:49 am Harbal wrote:
Don't keep doing this, IC. It is not a choice; whatever people have in them that attracts them to religion is glaringly conspicuous by its absence in me.
You do seem to hold to your previously expressed opinion that you have no need for meaning.

Yet you show bright gaps in your blackout curtains. Sorry I can't remember specific examples from your posts but you do have a developed moral sensibility. Maybe you have an overly restricted view of the nature of religion.
I have an aversion to the idea of religion, it's as simple as that. When people talk about the "meaning" of life, I assume they mean the purpose of our existence; the reason for our being here. I don't believe we have a purpose beyond the biological purpose to reproduce, which we have in common with every other living organism, and that is a purpose given to us unconsciously by nature. If we want to give ourselves purpose, there is nothing to stop us from coming up with our own purpose. Religion is just off-the-shelf purpose, and I haven't yet come across one that fits me.
I have not read as much Barbara Pym as you but she is actually sympathetic towards all her characters. She would get on well with Heidegger. Religion is a many headed beast.
Had Barbara Pym written the New Testament, I would probably be a Christian. :)
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Harbal wrote:
I have an aversion to the idea of religion, it's as simple as that. When people talk about the "meaning" of life, I assume they mean the purpose of our existence; the reason for our being here. I don't believe we have a purpose beyond the biological purpose to reproduce, which we have in common with every other living organism, and that is a purpose given to us unconsciously by nature. If we want to give ourselves purpose, there is nothing to stop us from coming up with our own purpose. Religion is just off-the-shelf purpose, and I haven't yet come across one that fits me.
Same here. I don't believe nature is or has any purpose or meaning. Some modes of nature such as me and you make meanings and purposes.
I don't like off the shelf purpose either.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Belinda wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:21 pm
Same here. I don't believe nature is or has any purpose or meaning. Some modes of nature such as me and you make meanings and purposes.
I don't like off the shelf purpose either.
The best code to live life by that I have been able to come up with is plain, straightforward honesty. Trying to be honest in your interactions with others, but even moreso trying to be honest with yourself. Being honest with one's self is probably the harder of the two. It's difficult for me to say to what degree I have maged to achieve it myself, but to whatever extent I have achieved it, I am sure it has been more beneficial to me than any other approach to life I might have adopted in the past. I have no idea how honest I appear to be to others; all I can say is that I try.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:27 pm "Doing this?" What am I "doing"?
What you keep doing is treating me as if I have the capability to join you in your misguided belief system, and all I need is enough persuasion. I am not wired up for religion; please just accept it.
"Wired up for"? :shock:

I have no idea what that means, or why you see it that way. One believes what one believes because one believes it to be the truth. That's all. If you need another reason to believe...like, say, a feeling, or a disposition...then you don't believe it at all, anyway. And of course, rational persuasion is the right way to form a belief.

You may choose a different way, H., if you so desire. You may do it by 'checking your wiring,' or something. But I cannot make heads or tails of the claim that you "have no capability." That would be no capability to be persuaded by reason. And I actually don't think that's you.
I'm always so amused when people use a phrase like "you know as well as I do..." It almost invariably signals a bluff.
And I find that when someone claims to be always amused by something critical of them, it is a sure sign that they are far from amused.

:D Well, let's say "bemused" then.

But I do find that the strategy does get from me a wry chuckle, at least.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:12 pm blah blah blah
Over time you have told yourself an elaborate story of who you are, and you have decided to believe that story. You have chosen belief over reality.
Reality can do nothing other than function perfectly, it can never break down. But the function of your understanding of what reality is from the the view of your chosen belief of who and what you are, well that can never be a true functional understanding. It is just a story, just an illusion.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harbal wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:27 amI have an aversion to the idea of religion, it's as simple as that. When people talk about the "meaning" of life, I assume they mean the purpose of our existence; the reason for our being here. I don't believe we have a purpose beyond the biological purpose to reproduce, which we have in common with every other living organism, and that is a purpose given to us unconsciously by nature. If we want to give ourselves purpose, there is nothing to stop us from coming up with our own purpose. Religion is just off-the-shelf purpose, and I haven't yet come across one that fits me.
However, the underpinning ideological assertion here is of unconscious biological imperative. That is the core frame upon which an 'attitude toward life' is set. The identification is with Nature that has no intelligible function and, of course, this is likely one reason why when Postmodern Man hits that blinding wall that porn-fascination takes over. There is tremendous, obsessive energy there and it rushes in to fill a vacuum. The addictive fire of a will perverted into unconscious, obsessive processes.

This Postmodern man cannot even conceive of meaning because he has no purpose, and thus what he does & thinks literally has no meaning especially to himself. He is a vein in which there is no pulse. Meaning has no meaning! He cannot be troubled by the notion as it simply takes too much energy and he is laziness personified. He is like an expended battery that no longer takes a charge. A lump. Since he is incapable of *taking a charge*, but yet must live, he becomes, more or less, a dullness machine. A droning tape-recorded voice of sheer annulment. Bring forth any monument of man's valuations and he yawns, burps, farts . . . or ejaculates.

Since purpose is a concoction, when in truth there is no purpose, the declarative statement is there, and in essence this is the veritable Postmodern doctrine, the outcome, a desiccated 7/11 hotdog in a soggy bun. It is a negation, that is true, by a depthless mind, but it is an active declaration that either gains or repels adherents. What happens when there are a million or a billion such Postmodern Men?

It could be said, with some honestly, that a plastic religion for a plastic man is off-the-shelf-purpose. But the empty man, the vacuous man that you explain yourself as being, is a man who is susceptible to a range of defined purposes that will impinge on you in one way or another because you can define no inner structure, on any level, and thus you have no real anchor. So other men, other institutions, other structures, created by men who have at least a mechanical purpose, will create the substrate in which you will live, as in a Matrix. The useless, blind man, a biological blob, growing in his vat, overseen by and controlled by forces & powers he is not even aware of but certainly cannot oppose or resist.

This is your *teaching*. You teach by example.
The best code to live life by that I have been able to come up with is plain, straightforward honesty. Trying to be honest in your interactions with others, but even moreso trying to be honest with yourself. Being honest with one's self is probably the harder of the two. It's difficult for me to say to what degree I have maged to achieve it myself, but to whatever extent I have achieved it, I am sure it has been more beneficial to me than any other approach to life I might have adopted in the past. I have no idea how honest I appear to be to others; all I can say is that I try.
But your *honesty* as you call it about yourself, when you present it and yourself to people who still have a spark of life in them, will appall them. Sorry, Old Bean, but you purvey a deathly poison. Your lack of vitality is that of a man on the verge of giving up. You have given up. Yet there was nothing to give up because there was no content! There was no animating fizz! No dream, no vision -- though there is a vaguish sense of wonder yet one coming through many insensate layers, as a droning voice through a muffling pillow.

What is it you just said?!?

How would a vibrant child react to the picture you present, the ditty from a psychic corpse? Just try to think of your paideia! You'd have to psychically kill the children's spirit otherwise they'd offend you and unsettle your dreary certainty with their vivacious probing being.

Where did you come from? is the question I ask. How did you come to be? You have not the slightest idea and no inclination to understand.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:36 pm
Where did you come from? is the question I ask. How did you come to be?
There is no way to find where one thing in this universe stops and another starts.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:12 pm
"Wired up for"? :shock:

I have no idea what that means,
It means that my psychological makeup does not incline me to follow movements, whether they be religious, political, or just social.
One believes what one believes because one believes it to be the truth.
Okay, if you want to put it like that: You have presented to me, under the heading of Christianity, a narrative; a story; an alleged state of affairs; a version of events, none of which I believe to contain any truth. I could say more or less the same thing about any other religion, or set of religious beliefs, that I have been made aware of.
If you need another reason to believe...like, say, a feeling, or a disposition...then you don't believe it at all,
And that is what I often suspect to be the case with religious people.
And of course, rational persuasion is the right way to form a belief.
That in itself is reason enought not to hold any religious beliefs. Religion is not rational; if it were rational it wouldn't be religion; it would be something else. Religion always requires a belief in things that are not part of our experience of the ordinary world, and in fact run counter to it.
You may choose a different way, H., if you so desire.
Choose a different way to do what?
But I cannot make heads or tails of the claim that you "have no capability." That would be no capability to be persuaded by reason.
If Christianity contained rationality, it would not put so much emphasis on faith. None of what you have said about sin and salvation makes even the slightest rational sense to me, so you could say that my attitude towards your religion is a case of persuasion by reason. I am persuaded that it is absolute nonsense.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:36 pm
Where did you come from? is the question I ask. How did you come to be?
I fascinate you, don't I? Old Bean.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harbal wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:20 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:36 pm
Where did you come from? is the question I ask. How did you come to be?
I fascinate you, don't I? Old Bean.
fascinate

fas·ci·nate (făs′ə-nāt′)
v. fas·ci·nat·ed, fas·ci·nat·ing, fas·ci·nates
v.tr.
1. To capture and hold the interest and attention of. See Synonyms at charm.
2. Archaic To deprive of the ability to escape or move, usually by the power of a look. Used of serpents.
3. Obsolete To bewitch.
v.intr.
To capture and hold someone's interest and attention.
[Latin fascināre, fascināt-, to cast a spell on, from fascinum, an evil spell, a phallic-shaped amulet.]
Oddly enough, there is a sex shop, perhaps it is a chain, that I used to pass driving in Denver. It was called Fascinations. Someone did their research on the matter and thus the subtle reference to a fascinum (a dildo) makes perfect sense.

I wonder if people would use the word as often as they do if they knew its origin?

Moving on to the topic at hand . . .

I know that you do not understand what I am on about. And that is why I find you a suitable and interesting subject. You have never analyzed yourself. You have never had anyone focus on you. You are honest, of that there is no doubt, and certainly level-headed and unflappable, but you really do not at all understand yourself as an *outcome* of an entire range of cultural processes. But this is not for you to understand! You have given yourself up, as you gave up your culture, your heritage, and control of your destiny. Destiny? What could this term mean to you? Even having to think about it will give you a headache.

What I am trying to point out is that when the horizon was erased a void opened. And into this void rushed a whole series of perversions. Now you only think I am referring to sexual improprieties and though the manipulation of sexual impulses is definitely a part of it, and one of the main engines for rejecting strict sexual ethics (so you can wack-off freely and with as little guilt as possible (or none at all), even if it is *into the air* and with no family-making intention), I am referring to the warping of human spirit. But if I use that term I know that it means nothing to you. There is no 'spirit' there is no 'soul' there is just biological imperative *to reproduce*. There are no values, no genuine object! This is the core imperative that you tell me defines you! What I do is reflect back to you, embellished, amplified certainly, what you tell me that you are. And you are not alone. There are, literally, millions & millions of yous.

You have, and you have been given, determining power. You have far more power than you imagine. You were in so many ways created by powers & institutions into which you are subsumed (economic, advertising, PR, propaganda, education) and they did this to mold you (in the best of circumstances) into the 'perfect consumer slave'. In your state, that is an inert, moldable blob, you serve them well. They do not want a thinking subject with an anchor or a rudder. So they give over a sense of power to you. This is a perversion of the demos. You are not directed by upper echelons of authoritative power that you respect, admire and emulate. You make it very clear that you cannot even conceive of such.

I know what happens to a people when they are seduced away from that domain of value I often refer to as higher metaphysical value. It is a thoroughly vulgar (i.e. popular) process.

Augustine of Hippo said:
“Thus, a good man, though a slave, is free; but a wicked man, though a king, is a slave. For he serves, not one man alone, but what is worse, as many masters as he has vices.”
What I say is that when a man falls away from higher metaphysical values, or when culture and its institutions pull him away from those concerns, that there is no where to go but down into unfreedom. But when he relinquishes his freedom he has done so through a grotesque negligence! And everything that you write is negligent, according to my valuations which, it must be clear, have no relevance or influence on you, given your predicates.

Here again is René Guénon:
“This now leads us to elucidate more precisely the error of the idea that the majority should make the law, because, even though this idea must remain theoretical - since it does not correspond to an effective reality - it is necessary to explain how it has taken root in the modern outlook, to which of its tendencies it corresponds, and which of them - at least in appearance - it satisfies. Its most obvious flaw is the one we have just mentioned: the opinion of the majority cannot be anything but an expression of incompetence, whether this be due to lack of intelligence or to ignorance pure and simple; certain observations of 'mass psychology' might be quoted here, in particular the widely known fact that the aggregate of mental reactions aroused among the component individuals of a crowd crystallizes into a sort of general psychosis whose level is not merely not that of the average, but actually that of the lowest elements present.”
All that I desire to do is to *see clearly* and to *explain things clearly & truthfully*. On this thread, in this conversation, we are trying to clarify what has value and what is real. If we are not doing that, what the fuck are we doing? My view is that everyone is approximating truth and we do that, in bizarre tendentious ways, because of our fragmentation.
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