Christianity

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Christianity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:30 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:09 am John 3:16 merely represent the offer by God/Jesus.

Now, what you missed out is this;
when the believer accept the offer from God/Jesus then there is a 'contract' in effect and the "terms of the contract" is everything [every word and small prints] that are in the Gospels.
When a believer believed in Jesus, it imply he has to believe all that are the words of Jesus or the reported acts and intent of Jesus and God in the Gospels [with Acts and OT as appendixes to the contract].
Boy, you sure used a lot of words. But you got it wrong again. Sorry.

I didn't "miss" anything in John 3:16. It has no "small print" as you call it. But what's misleading you is your determination to see Christianity as a "contract." That's backward: you're reading a human construct of quite modern provenance back into a situation that does not contain any of it, and in fact, preceeded it by thousands of years. And when you realize that, you have to understand that using "contract" as a metaphor is badly anachronistic, however much it may seem winsome to you.

And in point of fact, when you read those books to which you refer (Acts and the OT: you forgot the Epistles) you find exactly what I'm saying: that there's no "contract."

Instead, there is only the requirement, on the human side, of belief in the sincerity of God's offer.
Over and over again, the Bible outlines how that salvation is an act of God, and not contingent on some deal made by human actions. That's galling to our pride; but it's the truth.
No matter how you twist and turn, you are still falling on the critical terms essential for a "contract" [or whatever names it is called], i.e. offer and acceptance.

Btw, have you studied or are you familiar with the Principles re the Law of Contracts.
I have taken such a course and one will be amazed how a judge can deduce the essence [offer and acceptance] of what is a contract as implied from the most vague circumstances.
Over and over again, the Bible outlines how that salvation is an act of God, and not contingent on some deal made by human actions. That's galling to our pride; but it's the truth.
Are you implying that if one were to evilly and violently tortured and killed millions or billions of humans, God will still offer him salvation to heaven with eternal life regardless of such acts?

If such an interpretation is true and all Christians are aware of it, then [in real life] it is likely a great % of Christians will torture and kill humans [Christians and otherwise] because they are not "contractually' [covenantly] bound to refrain from killing other humans re Mathew 5:44 and other verses.

In this case, Christianity is inherently an evil laden religion.
If that is your view, I will not waste time disputing it.

My point is,
God is illusory and impossible to be real, but if Christians insist on believing such a God, then at least defend [to non-believers] that Christianity is not inherently evil which is supported by the 'contract' perspective.
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Janoah
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Re: Christianity

Post by Janoah »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:44 pm
Janoah wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:22 am I brought the existing real there,
in my opinion, the One is regularity of nature.
What, "regularity of nature." Most of nature is chaotic, not regular at all.
Are you saying chaos is your God?
it makes no sense for me to repeat the obvious in the future, - nature obeys regularity.
And chaotic movements in nature also obey regularity,
'Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory and branch of mathematics focusing on the study of chaos: dynamical systems whose apparently random states of disorder and irregularities are actually governed by underlying patterns and deterministic laws that are highly sensitive to initial conditions.'
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:29 am ...you are still falling on the critical terms essential for a "contract" [or whatever names it is called], i.e. offer and acceptance.
That's a very, very minimal definition of what you call "contract." If you stopped there, I would have no issue with you. But if you understand "contract" the way it is normally used, then I think it's evident you're just wrong about that. You'll have to take your pick.
Over and over again, the Bible outlines how that salvation is an act of God, and not contingent on some deal made by human actions. That's galling to our pride; but it's the truth.
Are you implying that if one were to evilly and violently tortured and killed millions or billions of humans, God will still offer him salvation to heaven with eternal life regardless of such acts?
If one genuinely repented and accepted God's offer of salvation, you mean? Of if one just pretended to?

The Apostle Paul was complicit in the murder of Christians. He rounded them up and tried to force them to blaspheme. He dragged them off to jail. He was the special comissioner of persecuting the people of God. God forgave him, and made him a new man.

There is no sin that God cannot forgive. But there is no fooling God: "Do not be deceived; God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap." (Gal. 6:7)

Justice is with God. There will be no shuffling of the deck when we meet Him.
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Janoah
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Re: Christianity

Post by Janoah »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:33 am
Fortunately, the critical contractual term all Christians are bound to is that they MUST love all and even their enemies. Therefore Christianity is inherent a pacifist religion, regardless of whether Christians behave well-manneredly or badly.

Christ cursed the fig tree that has not reached the fertility period, in which he did not find fruit, and it withered with grief.
Not too pacifist in my opinion.
It seems that Christians followed this covenant, and exterminating heretics and unbelievers with fire and sword, of course, out of love.

But the philosophical aspect seems to be more principled, the Christian god can be touched, that is, the Christian god is material.
But yet Aristotle proved that the One is - immaterial.

Is it good to love idols?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:16 pm It seems that Christians followed this covenant, and exterminating heretics and unbelievers with fire and sword, of course, out of love.
You're going to have to explain to me how any such thing can be legitimately "Christian," J.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Janoah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:55 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:44 pm
Janoah wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:22 am I brought the existing real there,
in my opinion, the One is regularity of nature.
What, "regularity of nature." Most of nature is chaotic, not regular at all.
Are you saying chaos is your God?
it makes no sense for me to repeat the obvious in the future, - nature obeys regularity.
The idea that the principles of science are some kind of laws imposed on reality is mystic nonsense.

The idea that reality is contingent on some mystical mandate that makes things what they are do what they do is a hold-over from religion and mystic philosophies. It is a kind of animism or anthropomorphism, borrowing the idea from the fact the animals and human beings make things and make things happen. It is neither philosophy or science, but a superstitious substitution for reason.

The explanation for all physical phenomena discovered by the physical sciences are principles by which the nature and behavior of physical entities are understood. Those principle are sometimes called, "laws," which is an unfortunate misunderstanding of what scientific principles are. They are called laws, because all physical phenomena conform to those principles, but they do not conform to them because those principles are some kind of constraints that must be obeyed. The principles of science do not make anything happen, they only describe what happens and explain the nature of entities and the relationships between them that are the reason for their behavior.
Janoah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:55 am ... Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory and branch of mathematics ...
I know what chaos theory is which I've used and studied since the discovery of "strange attractors," by Edward Lorenz, as well as fractals and other chaos phenomena. I wasn't referring to chaos theory. I was referring to the fact that what you call order or, "regularity," is the exact opposite of what reality is. It is disorder and irregularity that is the fundamental nature of existence. Without that disorder and irregularity, existence would be impossible.

A totally "uniform," or, "regular," (ordered) universe would have no differences in it. Whatever aspect is considered, entities, attributes, or existents, total uniformity would mean no difference, everything would have be identical, have the same attributes, and behave in the same way.

A universe which is totally uniform, with no variations or disorderliness whatsoever, is not possible. Everything that exists must be different in some way from everything else that exists, else it is not a different thing. Every extent in the univers must have some difference in its attributes, behavior, and relationships to all other things. The primary nature of existence is not order, not uniformity, but variation and difference.

Please see, "Disorder, Chaos, and Existence," or end the discussion.
Last edited by RCSaunders on Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 am He requires us to enter into a relation of trust with Him before He will reveal Himself to us.
Your claim still makes no sense... (despite all of your additional claims about marriage and relationships)...

No one would enter into a relationship of trust with a god or anyone, if that god or anyone would not reveal themselves.

This nonsense you speak for god only shows how you personify and objectify 'him' so that you can claim to speak about/for him. That objective clearly outweighs the nonsense of it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 am God has revealed Himself.
Make up your fucking mind.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:58 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:01 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:30 pm God is like that: he doesn't let people just examine him like a lab specimen. He requires us to enter into a relation of trust with Him before He will reveal Himself to us.
Trust what? "I'm not going to let you examine anything about me, but you have to trust me." Sounds like Eddie Murphy. I'm God, so you just have to "Trust me!"
It's not that, RC. It's that trust is basic to relationship.
"Trust," might be the basis for relationships between P.T. Barnum and his clients, but between honest individuals it is open honesty and candor that is the basis of relationships. An honest individual does not require anyone to just take their word for anything for which they have not demonstrated their integrity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:30 pm What one has to trust is the character, actions and words of God. Somebody who refuses to believe God exists or that God wants to be known, and cynically refuses even to consider the evidence of his own eyes in Creation...well, such a person gets nothing. Which is exactly what he's asking for. He's scoffing at the very idea of knowing God, so God gives him exactly what he expects...no relationship with Him.

Seems fair.
I know very few people who refuse to believe in anyone they can see with their own eyes, but most people won't believe in some supposed ghost, some story-teller tells them about, but they've never seen and never shows up. Seems fair, doesn't it?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 am God has revealed Himself.
Make up your fucking mind.
It's not "my mind." See Romans 1. It's His commitment.

Deal with that.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:05 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 am God has revealed Himself.
Make up your fucking mind.
It's not "my mind." See Romans 1. It's His commitment.

Deal with that.
Why are you so dishonest as to ignore your own inconsistent nonsense? You clearly don't want to deal with it either. :lol:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:53 pm An honest individual does not require anyone to just take their word for anything for which they have not demonstrated their integrity.
But He has. (Romans 1) But one has to recognize the demonstration for what it is. If one refuses, nothing more can be done.

There is always an excuse for disbelief...even in the face of the strongest evidence. As Jesus said, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:51)

He has this alarming tendency of always being right. He rose from the dead. And yet...
I know very few people who refuse to believe in anyone they can see with their own eyes...
Have you watched any media lately?

There were plenty of skeptics in ancient Israel. Even the Incarnation could not convince everybody. You perhaps underestimate the durability of people's desire not to be unsettled from their assumptions. It's pretty strong.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:53 pm An honest individual does not require anyone to just take their word for anything for which they have not demonstrated their integrity.
But He has. (Romans 1) But one has to recognize the demonstration for what it is. If one refuses, nothing more can be done.
You really do not want me to tell you what is wrong with that lie.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm There is always an excuse for disbelief...even in the face of the strongest evidence.
No matter how good the evidence is, if it is not good enough to convince someone in light of their best reason, to believe whatever is based on it is credulity and always a mistake. There is nothing wrong with doubting something and it is always better to remain ignorant then to fill a gap in one's knowledge with a lie--which is the whole basis of religion.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm As Jesus said, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:51)
So someone condemned others for not being gullible. That was wrong! No one should ever believe anything based on nothing bit the word of others.{/quote]
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm He has this alarming tendency of always being right. He rose from the dead. And yet...
Really? Where is he? I haven't seen him in the news lately.

The dead are dead. There is no, "coming back." There is no more reason to believe in life after death than there is in witches and ghosts, and there is actually more, "evidence," (though spurious) for the latter two.
Last edited by RCSaunders on Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:47 pm ...f it is not good enough to convince someone in light of their best reason...
God says it is. I say it certainly is. You say what you wish: a man has a right to live, die and be judged for what he knows and does. It's up to you.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm As Jesus said, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:51)
So someone condemned others for not being gullible.
No, Jesus blamed the people of His day who saw, and should have known better, for refusing to believe what they saw right in front of them.
He has this alarming tendency of always being right. He rose from the dead. And yet...
Really? Where is he? I haven't seen him in the news lately.
You will.

"So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-32)
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:13 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:47 pm ...f it is not good enough to convince someone in light of their best reason...
God says it is. I say it certainly is. You say what you wish: a man has a right to live, die and be judged for what he knows and does. It's up to you.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:12 pm As Jesus said, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:51)
So someone condemned others for not being gullible.
No, Jesus blamed the people of His day who saw, and should have known better, for refusing to believe what they saw right in front of them.
He has this alarming tendency of always being right. He rose from the dead. And yet...
Really? Where is he? I haven't seen him in the news lately.
You will.

"So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-32)
I know what you believe, IC. What's the point of quoting your fairy-tale book over and over, it's not going to convince anyone who has not already fallen for that nonsense.

I'll give you this. You put the White Queen to shame. She was only able to believe, "six impossible things before breakfast." You believe a myriad of impossible things all day long.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:08 pm You believe a myriad of impossible things all day long.
One day, you will believe them too, RC.

Prepare the day.
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