Christianity

[Alexis Jacobi]

Harbal, now do you unnerstan?

Though I do recognize the existence of metaphysical ideas, impetus, principles, and all the rest, what I now believe is that we receive these as if, one might say, plucked out of the air. These things are real, they are a part of reality, but only intelligent beings can conceive of higher metaphysical ideas. In this sense, they discover them through conceiving of them, and then seek to install them in our world. But our world is, precisely, the world of violent, unruly forces that don’t — can’t — think. We are subsumed in that world, we arise out of it, and our applications of metaphysical truths is always problematic, because tied up with authority and power.

[henry quirk]

Let me see if I can lay out my problem.

Is evil simply the necessary possibility that extends from man as free will (he can choose to ignore his fellows' right to life, liberty, and property (to slave, to rape, to murder, to rob his neighbor [to 'commodify' him])?

Or: is evil, 'EVIL', the Grendel-monster that comes into the mead hall at Midnight to eat us?

Or: is it both?

I go 'round & 'round on it.

[henry quirk]

"What holds you back?"

Time constraints. I can't, right now, afford to write, at length, if my post won't be answered.

Hence, my question: riffin' or lookin' for response?

[Harbal]

Harbal, now do you unnerstan?

Though I do recognize the existence of metaphysical ideas, impetus, principles, and all the rest, what I now believe is that we receive these as if, one might say, plucked out of the air. These things are real, they are a part of reality, but only intelligent beings can conceive of higher metaphysical ideas. In this sense, they discover them through conceiving of them, and then seek to install them in our world. But our world is, precisely, the world of violent, unruly forces that don’t — can’t — think. We are subsumed in that world, we arise out of it, and our applications of metaphysical truths is always problematic, because tied up with authority and power.

Who are you quoting, and do I "unnerstan" what?

[Gary Childress]

Interesting. I don't find that "obvious" at all. But perhaps you have reasons for finding it obvious, so I'm ready to hear them, if you have such.

It's certainly not the case that if people have different definitions of something then there can be no true definition. All that implies is that large numbers of people can be wrong, and that sometimes smaller numbers of people can be right...but we know that, of course. I would hesitate to attribute any error so transparent to your argument, so I will forbear to think it.

Evil is just a concept, so its definition depends entirely on who is doing the conceiving, and the nature of their concept. Perhaps the first person to ever use the word had a very specific definition in mind, but language changes over time.

I know from experience and hearsay what is evil(adjective), and so do you. If animals could talk they too could tell what is evil(adjective).

I saw an article in Huffington Post recently that seems to suggest that the smell of grass clippings "is" grass "screaming" when we cut it.

But, did you know that the smell of freshly-cut grass is actually the grass… screaming!?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 2b97eb6416

It makes me wonder, does grass "feel" pain and suffer when we cut it? How could anyone come to such a conclusion scientifically? Did the grass tell the scientist that it was "screaming" or that it "hurt" when it was cut? Is grass even "conscious"? If so, then that would put us all in kind of a quandary. I mean, I take antibiotics to kill microorganisms that are trying to kill me. Am I harming conscious beings when I do that?

When I say God is evil, that is what I am talking about. Everything in this world suffers and creates suffering in something else. We literally have NO choice but to do evil sometimes. Are we sure there's a God running this place? Or are we sure that man was created in "God's image"? Does grass or do insects, therefore, have their own God who wasn't strong enough to match our God or something (or perhaps fights with our God)?

I don't know. I don't deny that there aren't "good" and "evil" acts in the sense that when a conscious being suffers, it is an instance of evil happening. I just question the whole idea of "God" = the creator of the universe. In the end, the universe doesn't even meet our own standards of "good". Is life destroying itself truly an act of good?

If "God" is truly the maker of the universe, did he need to create beings that require the destruction of other living beings in order to avoid dying? Did "God" truly need to make death a terrifying experience for living beings? Does there need to be death at all? Is it some kind of steadfast rule among universe creators that they are required (or limited perhaps) to only create life forms that need to kill other life forms in order to avoid what is unacceptable to them?

I don't want to die. At least not yet. I hope when I die it won't be something unbearable to go through. But I've had all kinds of horrible visions that seem worse than my own death itself. For example, if I don't die, then I will continue to grow old and more and more feeble, and eventually, others will have to burden themselves in the process of being caregivers for me. Even now, I need caregivers just to make sure I have medicine and everything to keep me from having horrible visions about death. I don't want to burden others. I want to live and if I must die then I want to die peacefully without pain or fear. Is that just me being "petulant"? When it all comes down and the math is finished, is the will to live just "petulance"?


Poor Willie. I feel his pain as very real:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk55FA6_xkM

[Harbal]

It makes me wonder, does grass "feel" pain and suffer when we cut it? How could anyone come to such a conclusion scientifically? Did the grass tell the scientist that it was "screaming" or that it "hurt" when it was cut? Is grass even "conscious"? If so, then that would put us all in kind of a quandary. I mean, I take antibiotics to kill microorganisms that are trying to kill me. Am I harming conscious beings when I do that?

Animals feel pain because it motivates them to remove themselves from situations that are physically harmful. It is one of the outcomes of evolution, and natural selection. Why would grass, or any other plant, have evolved to feel pain when they are incapable of removing themselves from physically dangerous situations?

I don't know. I don't deny that there aren't "good" and "evil" acts in the sense that when a conscious being suffers, it is an instance of evil happening. I just question the whole idea of "God" = the creator of the universe. In the end God doesn't even meet our own standards of "good". Is life destroying itself truly an act of good?

If "God" is truly the maker of the universe, did he need to create beings that require the destruction of other living beings in order to avoid dying? Did "God" truly need to make death a terrifying experience for living beings? Does there need to be death at all? Is it some kind of steadfast rule among universe creators that they are required (or limited perhaps) to only create life forms that need to kill other life forms in order to avoid what is unacceptable to them?

What is the point of asking such questions, Gary? If you believe in the God of the Bible, you just have to accept that everything is the way it is for a good reason, and that very often only God knows the reason.

[Gary Childress]

I don't know. I don't deny that there aren't "good" and "evil" acts in the sense that when a conscious being suffers, it is an instance of evil happening. I just question the whole idea of "God" = the creator of the universe. In the end God doesn't even meet our own standards of "good". Is life destroying itself truly an act of good?

If "God" is truly the maker of the universe, did he need to create beings that require the destruction of other living beings in order to avoid dying? Did "God" truly need to make death a terrifying experience for living beings? Does there need to be death at all? Is it some kind of steadfast rule among universe creators that they are required (or limited perhaps) to only create life forms that need to kill other life forms in order to avoid what is unacceptable to them?

What is the point of asking such questions, Gary? If you believe in the God of the Bible, you just have to accept that everything is the way it is for a good reason, and that very often only God knows the reason.

I'm not sure how to answer your question, Harbal. I did, however, change the wording in the underlined sentence above, perhaps while you were still typing your reply. If you go back and read my post again you will see that it was revised before you posted your reply.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Gary Childress]

It makes me wonder, does grass "feel" pain and suffer when we cut it? How could anyone come to such a conclusion scientifically? Did the grass tell the scientist that it was "screaming" or that it "hurt" when it was cut? Is grass even "conscious"? If so, then that would put us all in kind of a quandary. I mean, I take antibiotics to kill microorganisms that are trying to kill me. Am I harming conscious beings when I do that?

Animals feel pain because it motivates them to remove themselves from situations that are physically harmful. It is one of the outcomes of evolution, and natural selection. Why would grass, or any other plant, have evolved to feel pain when they are incapable of removing themselves from physically dangerous situations?

I don't know. I don't deny that there aren't "good" and "evil" acts in the sense that when a conscious being suffers, it is an instance of evil happening. I just question the whole idea of "God" = the creator of the universe. In the end God doesn't even meet our own standards of "good". Is life destroying itself truly an act of good?

If "God" is truly the maker of the universe, did he need to create beings that require the destruction of other living beings in order to avoid dying? Did "God" truly need to make death a terrifying experience for living beings? Does there need to be death at all? Is it some kind of steadfast rule among universe creators that they are required (or limited perhaps) to only create life forms that need to kill other life forms in order to avoid what is unacceptable to them?

What is the point of asking such questions, Gary? If you believe in the God of the Bible, you just have to accept that everything is the way it is for a good reason, and that very often only God knows the reason.

Looking at it again, I suppose the answer to your question could be that I'm trying to turn others against God because I'm angry at God for making the universe the way it is (if the claims that God is the creator of the universe are true). I suppose it's not right of me to do so. If others think God is a "good" God and/or that a human God created the universe, then maybe I should just let them think what they want to think. Maybe it's not all that important or none of my business what others think about God or the "human condition" (perhaps it's only my condition to fear death anyway). I'm not even sure if I should be on a philosophy forum. Maybe I should just retire from life and mind my own business. Perhaps, I'm just a disciple of "Satan" trying to turn others against God. Fuck it. Maybe the world really would be better off without me in it. Maybe I ought to go stand on a street corner with a sign that says, "Please kill me before I do any more damage" on my forehead.

[Harbal]

Looking at it again, I suppose the answer to your question could be that I'm trying to turn others against God because I'm angry at God for making the universe the way it is (if the claims that God is the creator of the universe are true). I suppose it's not right of me to do so. If others think God is a "good" God and/or that a human God created the universe, then maybe I should just let them think what they want to think. Maybe it's not all that important or none of my business what others think about God or the "human condition" (perhaps it's only my condition to fear death anyway). I'm not even sure if I should be on a philosophy forum. Maybe I should just retire from life and mind my own business. Perhaps, I'm just a disciple of "Satan" trying to turn others against God. Fuck it. Maybe the world really would be better off without me in it. Maybe I ought to go stand on a street corner with a sign that says, "Please kill me before I do any more damage" on my forehead.

The only reason I commented was because I can never quite work out if you believe in God and bear him a massive grudge, or you don't believe in God and are having a dig at those who do believe in God and defend him.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hence, my question: riffin' or lookin' for response?

I will respond to what you write as best I can.

[attofishpi]

If "God" is truly the maker of the universe, did he need to create beings that require the destruction of other living beings in order to avoid dying? Did "God" truly need to make death a terrifying experience for living beings? Does there need to be death at all? Is it some kind of steadfast rule among universe creators that they are required (or limited perhaps) to only create life forms that need to kill other life forms in order to avoid what is unacceptable to them?

What is the point of asking such questions, Gary? If you believe in the God of the Bible, you just have to accept that everything is the way it is for a good reason, and that very often only God knows the reason.

No you don't. For example, I don't believe God created the universe, and I certainly don't believe he used words to speak it into existence!!

All I can be certain of, is the God of the Bible created the reality that at least I can perceive within.

[attofishpi]

Let me see if I can lay out my problem.

Is evil simply the necessary possibility that extends from man as free will (he can choose to ignore his fellows' right to life, liberty, and property (to slave, to rape, to murder, to rob his neighbor [to 'commodify' him])?

Or: is evil, 'EVIL', the Grendel-monster that comes into the mead hall at Midnight to eat us?

Or: is it both?

I go 'round & 'round on it.

Personally I don't believe God needs a separate entity, satan, monsters, demons etc for 'evil'.

I also don't consider natural disasters as evil - volcanoes, earthquakes etc..

These are all that ARE evil in my book:-

1. God has its other side and when putting one through HELL, it is very hard to LIVE (yes, EVIL reversed) - but is that EVIL, if 'he' deems it appropriate?
2. People can be extremely evil.

[Harry Baird]

Harry wrote: The extent to which that Story and its principles and morals are true is the extent to which I embrace those aspects of the social identity that derive from them.

AJ wrote: Then you must realize that the visible model, our Earth and its biological/physical ecological system, is the ‘reality’ that you are chained to. There, in that, there are no truths, no right and wrong, and certainly no evil.

My apologies. I will try to better explain why I took that abrupt tack.

In "explaining", you only reasserted your own views, with which I'm already familiar. You didn't explain how your response followed from what I'd written - which is not surprising, because it didn't.

In essence, your contention was: "If (as you, Harry, contend) our concern should be for actually true metaphysical/ethical propositions, and not for those merely purported to be true in a given society's Story, then it follows that there are no metaphysical/ethical truths, only biological/physical ones."

This is a total non sequitur.

[Harry Baird]

Is evil simply the necessary possibility that extends from man as free will (he can choose to ignore his fellows' right to life, liberty, and property (to slave, to rape, to murder, to rob his neighbor [to 'commodify' him])?

Or: is evil, 'EVIL', the Grendel-monster that comes into the mead hall at Midnight to eat us?

Or: is it both?

It's both.

Evil is a moral category; all immoral acts and actors are in a sense evil, but we tend to reserve "evil" in an unqualified sense for the more serious, premeditated, and persistent ones. In the metaphysical (Grendel-monster) sense, "evil" is that metaphysical reality/agency the basic nature of which is to commit (especially serious) immoral acts, and only (especially serious) immoral acts.

[iambiguous]

Just out of curiosity, does he know you're him?

That I doubt. He seems to have labeled you something of a lunatic. I don’t share his assessment. You are, according to me, uniambiguously shtuck.

I see that you have abandoned the "philosophers" at ILP. What, you weren't being challenged enough in exchanges with Meno and Ecmandu and Ichthus77 and peacegirl and MagsJ?