Christianity

[Age]

Harry insists that what the Bible says cannot possibly come true, because his understanding of it offends him.

Another lie from an inveterate liar. My claim is that the Bible is contradictory, not that it offends me.

And, to add ANOTHER CLAIM here;

The bible, itself, is NOT contradictory, AT ALL, but it is only people's MISINTERPRETATIONS of what was SAID and WRITTEN, in the bible, which are 'what is' REALLY CONTRADICTORY.

And, it is contradictory within itself that "immanuel can", being the seemingly biggest supporter of the bible, is the one BELIEVING the MOST CONTRADICTION, and EXPRESSING the BIGGEST CONTRADICTORY statements here.

[Age]

...you threaten members of this forum, including myself, with eternal damnation,

I have threatened nobody, Harry. And I really have no more to say. But I'm not the issue, either way, since I neither make nor break the truth.

But you do NOT YET KNOW thee Truth. You only have a VERSION of A, personal, 'truth'.

CLAIMING that the word of God is 'the truth', and, that God SAYS that 'you' WILL receive ETERNAL DAMNATION IF 'you' do NOT do this or that, and 'you' CONTINUALLY make this CLAIM, IS 'threatening members of this forum'. And, NO matter in WHAT WAY NOR in HOW MANY WAYS 'you' 'TRY TO' TWIST and DISTORT this "immanuel can", 'you' have been THREATENING members of this forum WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION.

Just like 'you' WERE, and STILL ARE, being THREATENED WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION.

'you' may just be A MESSENGER of THE THREAT, but by PASSING THE THREAT ON, 'you', are by default, THREATENING "others" WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION.

As the Good Book itself says, "Unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) That's not me speaking...that's Jesus Christ.

So, the one here KNOWN as "immanuel can" is now CLAIMING that 'it' is ACTUALLY NOT "immanuel can" at all, but is REALLY "jesus christ", itself.

WHO, EXACTLY, SPOKE and WROTE the words, UNDER the label "immanuel can"?

Oh, and by the way, 'you' ARE MISTAKEN "immanuel can", (or "jesus christ"), as it does NOT say what is SAID and WRITTEN here in the 'Good Book'.

Also, you CLAIM that you have THREATENED NO body, but then IMMEDIATELY GO ON THREATENING people, ONCE AGAIN, and ONCE MORE. As can be CLEARLY SEEN DIRECTLY ABOVE and BELOW these words here.

Or as the Book of Revelation promises,

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

The issue is not what we like, what we find fits our personal philosophy, or what satisfies our skeptical questions. The issue is only what's true, and what's impending. The purpose of knowing it is not condemnation, but salvation.

IF 'the issue' IS ONLY what IS true, and what IS impending, then HOW do 'you' ENVISION and/or IMAGINE 'you' and "others" RESOLVE 'this issue'?

The One and ONLY True ANSWER by the way, is AGAIN VERY SIMPLE to EXPLAIN, and VERY EASY TO COMPREHEND and UNDERSTAND.

"But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered." (2 Pet. 3:8-10)

Now is not the Day of Judgment. Now is the Day of Salvation. But the Great Day will come, and so we have to choose our destiny now.

But that's what you need to know. Do with it what you are determined to do.

What, EXACTLY, IS 'it', which 'you' CLAIM 'we' NEED to KNOW?

You just REPEATED words written in just A BOOK.

And, from what I have OBSERVED and ASCERTAINED 'you', "immanuel can", appear to NOT even KNOW what 'that' even means, or refers to, EXACTLY.

And, IF 'want' to CHANGE this OBSERVATION, then 'you' NEED to be ABLE TO CLARIFY what IS being SAID and WRITTEN here.

[Age]

As the Good Book itself says

I've proved to you that the "Good Book" is contradictory, and, thus, that it is unreliable, and thus, your quotes from it are irrelevant to the establishment of truth.

Respond to that proof or don't; as it stands, your "Good Book" has no credibility.

Is it POSSIBLE, at all, that what is, supposedly, 'proved' in that link is NOT 'contradictory' REALLY?

Or, is this NOT POSSIBLE?

Oh, and by the way, this is NOT AT ALL SAYING NOR CLAIMING that what "immanuel can" SAYS and CLAIMS is NOT contradictory EITHER.

I am just WONDERING If, from your perspective, that BOTH BOTH of YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of the bible could BOTH be just a Wrong INTERPRETATION?

Or, do you REALLY BELIEVE that your OWN INTERPRETATION is NOT Wrong in ANY way, and the bible is just absolutely CONTRADICTORY?

Furthermore, I would like to LOOK AT 'your' CLAIM 'proof', and DISCUSS 'it', later on if you would like to as well?

[Age]

Well, we'll see if that turns out to be true. The Bible says one thing, you say another. And Harry insists that what the Bible says cannot possibly come true, because his understanding of it offends him.

One version of the truth is going to win. That's for sure.

But the more important truth is that *the Bible* says many different things, some of them wonderful and certainly beautiful, and some of them completely horrible and extremely ugly -- and here I refer to those quotations of Yahweh's words.

COULD the 'complete horrible and extremely ugly', which 'you' CLAIM to SEE, just be a False, Wrong, or Incorrect INTERPRETATION of what is written in the bible?

Or, do 'you' NOT MISINTERPRET the writings in the bible?

And I have not cited to the actions that Yahweh commanded his subjects to undertake. Some of these are simply ghastly.

WHY do you NOT cite those, SUPPOSED, 'commanded actions'?

ONLY WHEN you do, then this is WHEN we can SEE if YOUR INTERPRETATIONS are Right OR Wrong.

Yahweh -- let me make a bold declaration -- declares himself to be the author of the Shoah.

What does the word 'yahweh' mean, or refer to, here, EXACTLY? And, what is 'the shoah'?

When Yahwey is displeased with his people-subjects he stimulates surrounding peoples, those he has commanded in other declarations to be neutralized, to raid, destroy, cut up, rape and enslave his own people.

As SHOULD be.

But then some of 'us' KNOW what the word 'people' means, or refers to, in the bible.

What does the word 'people' mean, or refer to, to you?

And, just like in the quran when it states "non-believers" should be killed, there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE to what was SAID and WRITTEN here.

BOTH are PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE and ACCEPTABLE, and, in fact, SHOULD BE carried out and followed through with.

But, then again, just about ALL human beings, in the days when this was being written, did NOT KNOW what the word 'people' meant, and referred to, EXACTLY.

There is a very very ever-so-slight need to begin to examine some of these declarations.

I suggest there is a VERY BIG NEED to EXAMINE ALL of these declarations, as it only through PROPER and FULL EXAMINATION where and when the MISINTERPRETATIONS are FOUND, and CORRECTED.

To step back from them. And to examine the Biblical texts as creations of priest-classes who handle narrative and its manipulative potential. You do this at least when you critique Catholicism. But you do not seem to see the fuller and the larger picture.

So, right at this point we deal with problems and contradiction that must be thought about, must be resolved. And one of the ways that these things are thought about and resolved is by dealing with their moral implications. Then their immediate political and social implications. To do that one requires a philosophical attitude and method.

Who can really see our world right now?

I CAN. And, what 'you' call here "our world" is NOT 'your' 'world' AT ALL.

What you want to say here needs to be isolated and accentuated. You have taken one element -- the prospect of a hell to be lived eternally in an after-world -- as being an absolute, irrefutable picture of a true outcome. You have done nothing in terms of exploring why you believe this aspect, and you do not have and did not have any intention at all of philosophically examining it because performing philosophy is not in any sense what you are doing!

So at least the philosophical pose can be dropped, no?

The reason you have the stance that you do is because you are a Christian Bible literalist. You are also a Christian Zionist, and Christian Zionism is a recent political-social creation (or interpretation for specific activism). Once one has begun to intelligently and let's say to fairly examine the over-arching edifice of Christian belief, and then of your specific derived belief (modern Christian Zionism), at that point a thoughtful person, and certainly a philosophical person, must pull back from 'forced' or 'requisite' belief. That is, blind belief.

But blind belief is what you recommend. You are a blind believer and, seemingly, you believe it morally and metaphysically necessary that those you communicate with become the sort of believer that you are.

This is why you are seen as acting out of psychologically coercive methods.

Do I expect you to get any of this? Of course not! In my view you are something (a phenomenon) that has to be seen, understood and dealt with.

[Age]

As the Good Book itself says...

I've proved to you that the "Good Book" is contradictory, and, thus, that it is unreliable, and thus, your quotes from it are irrelevant to the establishment of truth.

I've seen no "contradiction," save the fact that it "contradicts" your expectations, Harry. But the problem is not with the Good Book.

'you' can NOT SEE the CONTRADICTIONS, BECAUSE 'you' have been completely and utterly BLINDED, by your OWN BELIEFS.

However, if you have it on hand, let's see what you think actually "contradicts." Put the two Biblical statements that you allege as "contradictions" side by side for me. And I'll see what I can do to address them.

But it is NOT the bible that CONTRADICTS itself. It is YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS of what the bible is saying that CONTRADICTS themselves.

[Age]

Though, sure, it might be Mannie's very own One True Path that nails it.

It really couldn't. The truth is not contradictory.

And hopefully the truth is not that ridiculous.

What is 'this' supposed One Truth Path, EXACTLY, which, supposedly, "immanuel can" owns?

[Age]

But Lacewing, let's address the elephant in the room. You have bitterly crushed our dear friend's heart. How are you going to make it right for him? The poor fellow lies in desperate misery. Life is all but impossible for him at this point. Only you can save him. What will you do?

Well, if that was true... I would talk gently and try to comfort and reassure him. But we all know he's putting on a drama, so I'm meeting him on the stage for our epic performance. I honestly do love people and wish them well. If they become identified with their trips so desperately that they become ridiculous on this forum, it seems useful to bring that to their attention here. Typically, it seems, people develop filters and blinds to preserve their view, no matter what, as it represents their identity and purpose and 'rightness', no matter how nonsensical that might be.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED True by the way "lacewing" LOOKS AT and SEE 'things'.

Logic and cooperation and balance and truth become enemies and are denied and ignored. So, I don't need to worry about hurt feelings in those cases, and the theater rages on!

[Age]

I invested a whole 5 or 6 seconds in intensive searchin' to find what follows and not a soul has made use of any of it.

Ungrateful wretches.

Obviously, nobody cares. But here, I'll take a look...

The Bible teaches that hell will not be forever.

That's a relief!

Let’s examine the Scriptures and some questions that are raised about hell

Do we have to?

“Behold, they shall be as stubble;

That doesn't sound good.

the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it”

Wait a minute... what?

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

That's nice. What's he going to do about all the burned-off skin and eyeballs?

and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

So, once people have been tortured and killed enough, God will give it a rest.

Wow, interesting, Henry... so what's your point?

Talk about one who has been SEVERELY TRAUMATIZED, by their past experiences.

[Age]

the thread is only 237 post short of the most posts concerning Christianity making no sense. It is a remarkable achievement and once the record is established, there will be a celebration.

Well, we have worked hard to demonstrate that Christianity makes no sense -- so this is good news! The forum should be proud and serve as an example to others.

But 'your' OWN learned, and taught, interpretations of "christianity", OBVIOUSLY, have NEVER made sense

[Age]

the thread is only 237 post short of the most posts concerning Christianity making no sense. It is a remarkable achievement and once the record is established, there will be a celebration.

Well, we have worked hard to demonstrate that Christianity makes no sense -- so this is good news! The forum should be proud and serve as an example to others.

That is only in appearance. Or the shallow perspective. A nuanced mind must look more closely. The real task is there.

But BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS PREVENT and STOP those with them from LOOKING more closely or MORE deeply.

BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS form the SHALLOWEST and NARROWEST of views.

[Age]

The long excerpt quoted by LaceWing can be seen as a somewhat typical epiphany which is repeated in numerous of his novels and stories. I would not detract from its beauty and artfulness -- we are dealing with philosophical and mystical poetry -- yet still Hesse himself was aware that his confrontation with the East could only bear fruit when he resolved to *come back into himself*.

What Hesse describes in this final rhapsody of affinities is a metaphor for a cosmic dance of oneness, of unity since all creation and origins are contained in the one which started it all.

When one states, "all creation and origins are contained in the one which started it all", are you implying, inferring, or meaning that ALL as One begun and was started?

If yes, then HOW could this even be a POSSIBILITY, let alone an ACTUALITY.

BUT, if you were implying, inferring, or meaning some 'thing' DIFFERENT, then what do you mean by, "started it all"?

The same logic compels all humans to be interrelated. Same principle, only further back, and we too have kinship to the stone. Existence from its very beginning is the upshot of ONE genealogy.

CLAIMING that there was a 'beginning' to Everything means that a SEPARATED 'thing', 'started' it ALL.

Which is ALL VERY CONTRADICTORY, AGAIN.

Which there is a LOT OF within this thread.

This idea isn't new to either East or West. The novel was published in 1922 when there was bound to be a more Western poetic perspective on the East. Jung himself was not immune to it. Nevertheless, the idea of oneness remains universal, an integration of processes reforming and transforming creating all varieties within the context of a single world.

In a work of fiction, poetic license is allowed; that doesn't make it wrong.

Are the words 'poetic license' just being used here to refer to 'story telling' instead of 'Truth telling'?

[Age]

That is only in appearance. Or the shallow perspective. A nuanced mind must look more closely. The real task is there.

Hey, bring it up with Nick... he's the one who pointed it out.

The fact that the interactions of all these posts with the intent of defining Christianity make no sense is award winning since it proves how Christianity becomes Christendom making it possible for The Great Beast to retain its position of power.

WHEN 'you', people, stop calling A 'beast', 'The Great Beast', then that TAKES AWAY a fair bit of 'the power' that 'you', people, are GIVING 'it'.

[henry quirk]

Talk about one who has been SEVERELY TRAUMATIZED, by their past experiences.

Me? Oh yes, bein' raised by the Highland Wild People of Borneo was quite traumatic.

[Age]

The fact that the interactions of all these posts with the intent of defining Christianity make no sense is award winning since it proves how Christianity becomes Christendom making it possible for The Great Beast to retain its position of power.

The Great Beast retaining its power within Christianity? Yes... it is surely there as well as anywhere. In fact, that's probably the only place where it is since Christianity created it and requires it to justify certain claims and beliefs that other people have no use for.

The 'beast', or 'devil', as it is sometimes otherwise known as, just gets 'you', people, to CHANGE YOUR CLAIMS and BELIEFS, which then 'you', people, are just TRICKED and FOOLED into 'trying to' "justify", and "rationalize", these new ones.

[Age]

THAT QUESTION attempts to TRICK and DECEIVE

Huh? My question is straightforward and honest.

From your perspective.

What do you think is tricky and deceptive about it?

Your misinterpretation.

If you would like clearer examples, more elaboration, or further clarity, then just let me know, okay?