Christianity

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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pm I could suggest examining Plato's Seventh Epistle, where, describing what can result from certain disciplines of mind (and intelligence) which are part of his method and teaching he says:
"For it does not at all admit of verbal expression like other studies, but, as a result of continued application to the subject itself and communion therewith, it is brought to birth in the soul on a sudden, as light that is kindled by a leaping spark, and thereafter it nourishes itself."
This is, I would suggest, a form of revelation...
Well, ideas and inspirations and insights may arise because of or regardless of whatever we are focused on. Then we use that to mold into our next work of art... which is a fabrication. It could be worth noticing how much we're all creating -- and consider the implications of that. So many creations are possible -- and each person would say they are seeing and acting based on the 'truth'. So, it would seem that we (humankind) have access and capability to work with an infinitely expressive canvas, and what does 'truth' actually have to do with art?

Of course, the concept of 'truth' is valuable for the mechanics of human life -- but we take/push it so much farther than that by claiming it is the basis of what we think, denying that others know it, and even claiming to know 'some kind of universal/ultimate truth'.

Where do our fabrications/creations begin and end, and what is our creation and what is truth?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:40 pm REALLY, HOW MANY TIMES do 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, have to be TOLD some 'thing' BEFORE 'you' can GRASP 'it', COMPREHEND 'it', and UNDERSTAND 'it'?
Dontaskme wrote:
then what other people say to you cannot be believed or disbelieved at all.
Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:40 pmBut 'it' CAN.

I just CHOOSE NOT TO. Because if I DID, then I would NOT be Truly OPEN ANYMORE.
So you are open only to the truth ...and according to you, no one you are talking to will understand, comprehend, grasp, the truth until they are fully open to it.

Is that what you are saying?
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pm I am interested in what puts a brake on 'endless innovation'.
So, you don't think the Universe is naturally infinitely creative nor should be?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pmI am interested in defining 'metaphysical bedrock'.
What are the chances you'll be making it up, as so many others have made it up?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pmI am more interested in countering ungrounded innovation which seems to have revolutionary impulse, and thus vast 'consequences' that I sincerely doubt are really any good at all (and certainly this must be proved not merely stated).
What would we be without revolutionary impulses? :) Part of the process of growth is in testing the waters in all sorts of directions. Some directions may seem short-sighted and damaging -- there are people who see religion that way. Of all the different perspectives and experiences people can have, who should say what must apply to all?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pm I have, at the very least, devoted a good deal of time (years) to examining Christian material, now pushed to the side, now depreciated, now no longer understood, now misunderstood and now denigrated (and also despised), to see that a vast content of *value* has been dismissed when it really should be embraced and elevated.
Maybe the material was pushed aside for good reasons, such as: its convoluted claims and dogma are toxic. We can gain value from all sorts of things in all sorts of areas. It would not make sense that value can only be found and represented and expressed in a certain way, or within certain boundaries. Why would the Universe be as small as that? Why would man try to shrink it down to that?
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:54 pm If one does NOT ANSWER CLARIFY QUESTIONS posed to them, then I can NOT participate meaningfully in discussions with "others", in this forum,
Yes, you could. There are basic things you could do to make this experience much better for other people and much better for yourself. I'll list you a few.
You STILL DO NOT GET IT "immanuel can".

How this IS PROGRESSING is working PERFECTLY. So, this experience can NOT get ANY better for 'Me' nor for "others".

WHEN will you UNDERSTAND that 'this experience' is NOT ALL about 'you', and what 'you' WANT and DESIRE for 'you', personally.

We ALREADY KNOW that 'you' BELIEVE the Everything SHOULD revolve AROUND 'you'. This can be CLEARLY SEEN in your writings and discussions. BUT, 'this experience' is NOT about 'you' AT ALL. 'This experience' is USING 'you' to ACHIEVE what 'it' is that 'we' ALL WANT and DESIRE. Which, AGAIN, is proceeding 'quite nicely', or, in other words, PERFECTLY exactly as it is.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Firstly, you should consider that not every statement in a post requires any "clarification."
Consider the Fact that if you can NOT 'clarify' absolutely EVERY statement in your posts, then you do NOT REALLY ACTUALLY KNOW what you are TALKING ABOUT.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Some are clear as they stand.
And, some are "as clear as mud", as some say.

By the way, I OBVIOUSLY do "require" 'clarification' of EVERY statement. This is just MORE of your DECEPTIVE manner, and Falsifying CLAIMS, which has become a REAL BAD HABIT of yours now.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm The tendency to interrogate every little detail comes across not as perceptive or interested, but as irrational and hostile.
Is this so, for you?

The ABILITY to KNOW, and POINT OUT and SHOW, EXACTLY WHERE, in EVERY little detail, Falsehoods and/or fallacies, literally, lie can be VERY ANNOYING to those that did NOT previously KNOW those 'lies' where laying in there, or when they were 'trying to' HIDE those 'lies'.

Also, and as I have INVITED MANY TIMES PREVIOUSLY, if there is ANY, perceived, 'irrationality' or 'hostility' in absolutely ANY word I SAY or WRITE, then just POINT them OUT and REVEAL them here. I am MORE than WILLING to ENGAGE in MEANINGFUL DISCUSSIONS about 'them'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm You need to reign yourself in, and be selective: what is the main point of a message, and what is worth interrogating.
I do NOT 'need' to do ANY such thing.

I am EXPRESSING MY MESSAGES EXACTLY HOW and WHEN I WANT TO, UNDERSTOOD?

The MAIN POINT of MY MESSAGE, I EXPRESS, if I WANT TO, and what is WORTH INTERROGATING I INTERROGATE.

That you are completely AND utterly INCAPABLE of 'countering' ANY of MY MESSAGES and INTERROGATIONS is of absolutely NO concern to me AT ALL.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Ask only the question that matters, not every "clarifying question" that pops into your head.
DO NOT TELL ME WHAT OR WHAT NOT TO DO, OKAY?

And, EVERY QUESTION I ASK MATTERS. As will SOON ENOUGH come to LIGHT.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Secondly, people have told you how unpleasant the CAPs are, and how they don't apppreciate your overuse of them.
'overuse" is A PERCEPTION and RELATIVE to the observer.

Also, people have told you how unpleasant your CONDESCENDING tone IS, how unpleasant your LIES and DECEPTIONS ARE, and how they do NOT appreciate the way you DO these things.

But, like me, we write how we CHOOSE to write, correct?

I am NOT here to 'please' 'you', posters. I have MY GOAL and I am STICKING to IT, okay?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm They're not serving the purpose you imagine they are:
AND, what 'purpose' are they, that you are IMAGINING I am IMAGINING they are?

If you EVER spend the time to IMAGINE what that is EXACTLY, then you WILL SEE just how ABSURD and RIDICULOUS your CLAIM is here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm instead of emphasizing what you're feeling, they're irritating people.
Here we have AGAIN ANOTHER EXAMPLE of ALL this ASSUMING, without ANY substantiate support. As well as ANOTHER EXAMPLE of 'trying to' CONTINUE on DEFLECTING from the Fact this one is ABSOLUTELY and TOTALLY USELESS in being able to back up and support the CLAIMS 'it' MAKES in relation to 'me' and MY WORDS here.

I suggest INSTEAD of ASSUMING I am emphasizing what I am "feeling" you GAIN CLARITY FIRST. That way you will NOT be SO WRONG, SO OFTEN as you ARE.

Also, how about instead of you writing what you ASSUME is true you instead write ONLY what you KNOW is true?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm And you can tell that's right, because I'm far from being the first person you've heard that from. It's time you believed us.
But I have absolutely NO reason to dispute ANY of you are 'right' in regards to just how IRRITATING I APPEAR to ANY of 'you', posters.

Thee Fact is I just do NOT CARE if I am or not.

WHEN I SEE ANY of one 'you' write some 'thing that is OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, then I CAN and I WILL POINT OUT and SHOW 'them', that is; if I so CHOOSE to do so. And, I WILL do this in CAPITAL LETTERS or NOT without absolutely ANY concern AT ALL if that IRRITATES 'you', "immanuel can", or ANY one else, okay?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Thirdly, find ways to be positive about whatever is positive in somebody else's message.
Have you EVER considered following your OWN advice here?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm That doesn't mean you can't interrogate -- it means that a steady diet of nothing but interrogation comes across as pointlessly fractious and hostile.
Absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer. And, if this is what you SEE, then so be it.

JUST MAYBE if my Truly OPEN CLARIFYING QUESTIONS (or what you call "interrogation") were answered, then what might come to LIGHT, and thus be SEEN, was NOT ANY 'hostility' AT ALL, but RATHER the True intention behind the OPEN questioning.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm And it makes responding far too much work for most people to bother -- and that's why most of what you write elicits no response.
If it is, SUPPOSEDLY, "too much work" for 'you' to bother to respond, then what 'you' have been SAYING MUST NOT REALLY be of that much IMPORTANCE anyway.

If one does NOT want to spend some time and effort in backing up and supporting what they had PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN and CLAIMED, then this probably SHOWS far more about how little 'credence' that ACTUALLY give to what they SAID.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Fourthly, "LOL" is a styling of children, not adults.
You do NOT even KNOW what LOL stands for.

And, it is ONLY thee Truly MATURED who KNOW to ASK for CLARITY BEFORE they make ASSUMPTIONS about absolutely ANY thing AT ALL.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm It serves no purpose in your messages except to make them look childish.
Who or what is 'them' here?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm You should drop that completely.
LOL "yes sir or madam".

You REALLY can NOT get rid of your LEARNED CONDESCENDING manner, correct?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Also, get rid of the adolescent "you adults" thing, and the childish "alien" talk. Nobody's buying it. You can see that. It's just making you look petulant, and that's not the way you want to come across, is it?
What does the word 'petulant' here even mean or refer to, to you?

And, the VERY REAL REASON WHY I write EXACTLY the way I do is SOON to come-to-light.

Which, by the way, is just about NOTHING like what you have been ASSUMING all along.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Fifthly, conversation is not a combat sport. When people put out a proposition, the are often inviting your opinion -- which could be either positive or critical, but should always be polite. They're giving you a compliment and a privilege in responding to you; it's rude to come back at them with nothing but cynicism or negativity.
IF 'you' SEE 'cynicism' or 'negativity' are 'you' now BLAMING 'me' for what 'you', "yourself", SEE?

And, if 'you' responding to me MEANS 'you' are giving me a compliment, and LOL a privilege, then does this ALSO MEAN that when you do NOT give me a response you are NOT complimenting me NOR giving me a privilege?

And, if it is the 'response', itself that gives the compliment and the privilege, then I MUST give 'you', "immanuel can", and "others" here, MUCH MORE compliments AND privileges that ANY of 'you' give me.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Find ways to build their view up, in any way that it deserves to be built up, and keep the criticism for only those few things that really, really need it.
Will you PROVIDE EXAMPLES of when I have, supposedly, "criticized" "other's" views?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Also, and by the way, are you ALSO finding ways to build up my views, and in ANY way that they deserve to be built up, or are you 'criticizing' just about EVERY thing I do here?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Even then, you can be polite.
Have I EVER NOT been polite?

If yes, then WHERE and WHEN?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Focus on the topic, and never insult the person unless you're ready to write them off for good.
How much longer are you going to gone on in ANOTHER ATTEMPT of 'yours' to DEFLECT AWAY from the Fact that you have NOT YET, anyway, been ABLE to counter ANY thing I have SAID in regards to YOUR WORDS?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm I could give you more hints: but this is enough for now.
Okay.

And I will TAKE one of your hints and keep it VERY SIMPLE, for you.

Focus on the ACTUAL QUESTIONS I put forward to you and just ANSWER them Truly Honestly. That way you will NOT make it SO OBVIOUS that you are 'trying to' HIDE 'things' here.

Also, when you MAKE A CLAIM here it is MUCH BETTER for you that you are ABLE TO back up and support that CLAIM BEFORE you even begin to WRITE IT OUT HERE, for ALL to SEE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm You need to correct your communication style, so as to win more friends and allies, and to make fewer pointless enemies.
STILL you do NOT GET IT.

I am NOT here to "win" ANY friends from 'you', posters.

I am ONLY using 'you', posters, here to POINT OUT and SHOW just HOW human beings used to mis/behavior back in those days, and what NOT to do, in order to keep the future progressing towards thee Truly PEACEFUL 'world' that WE ALL WANT and DESIRE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm I think you'll be happier with your experience here when you do.
I suggest NOT "worrying" about 'me' AT ALL and ONLY concerning "yourself" with 'you' here.

The GOAL I had set is progressing along PERFECTLY HERE-NOW. So, what EXACTLY is 'it', which you think or BELIEVE could make me more HAPPIER?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm I know how you're going to take all this: you're going to assume it's meant as hostile.
LOL So, you make an ASSUMPTION about what I am "going to assume". Which, considering ALL of things that I have SAID about ASSUMING, and how I do NOT like to make ANY assumptions AT ALL, the ABSURDNESS of your statement here is even MORE BLINDINGLY STUPID.

Now, WHY, EXACTLY, would I even begin to ASSUME that your response here is 'hostile' in ANY way AT ALL?

From what I have SEEN from your response here, 'you' are ATTEMPTING to come across as all 'nice and sweet', like a 'fatherly figure' advising the 'poor little stupid, rebellious child how to behave better so more people will like you and so that you can "win" or gain more friends", and be "much more happier".

All while REALLY 'trying to' just DECEIVE and DETRACT AWAY from your OWN FAILINGS.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm It's not.
I NEVER even began to think it was, let alone EVER ASSUMED it was.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Sometimes, only your best friends will tell you the truth. In this case, everything I'm telling you can help you to become much more effective on this forum.
WHEN will you GRASP the Fact that I am NOT writing in this forum to be effective on this forum?

ONCE AGAIN, I am USING this forum, 'you', posters, to HELP IN ACHIEVING what 'it' is that I AM ACHIEVING.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm If I were hostile, if I were writing you off, I would not have any reason to bother telling you all this...
Which is REALLY quite LAUGHABLE and CONTRADICTORY considering EVERY time I POINT OUT and SHOW YOUR FALLACIES, your think and/or write;
"I am not bothering".

BUT, when you want HAND OUT ADVICE and NEGLECT EVERY thing that I have SAID and POINTED OUT, then you WILL 'bother'.

The MORE 'you' PRETEND the MORE BLATANT YOUR CONTRADICTIONS and HYPOCRISIES STAND OUT.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm especially since I have every reason to expect a hostile response from you, if history is any indicator.
Now here we have ANOTHER ASSUMPTION and ANOTHER NEW CLAIM.

WILL you THIS TIME provide ANY EXAMPLES of WHEN and WHERE I have, supposedly, provided a 'hostile response', to you?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:23 pm Best wishes as you go forward. I promise you, you'll be happier if you change than if you keep up what you're doing.
"happier" in regards to, or in relation to, 'what', EXACTLY?

Your ABILITY, or INABILITY, to be Honest here WILL SHOW just how much, or how little, you REALLY KNOW.

Oh, and before I forget, from ALL of this DISTRACTING you are DOING HERE, let us NOT FORGET that you CLAIMED that you COULD so easily PROVE my replies Wrong and so easily contest what I write, YET, we ARE STILL WAITING for you TO DO SO. So, WHY IS THIS, AGAIN?
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:24 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pm I could suggest examining Plato's Seventh Epistle, where, describing what can result from certain disciplines of mind (and intelligence) which are part of his method and teaching he says:
"For it does not at all admit of verbal expression like other studies, but, as a result of continued application to the subject itself and communion therewith, it is brought to birth in the soul on a sudden, as light that is kindled by a leaping spark, and thereafter it nourishes itself."
This is, I would suggest, a form of revelation...
Well, ideas and inspirations and insights may arise because of or regardless of whatever we are focused on. Then we use that to mold into our next work of art... which is a fabrication.
But if and when one just expresses what IS ONLY thee ACTUAL Truth in front of them, then they do NOT 'fabricate' ANY thing.

Sure, this is FULLY UNDERSTOOD, by now, correct?
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:24 pm It could be worth noticing how much we're all creating -- and consider the implications of that. So many creations are possible -- and each person would say they are seeing and acting based on the 'truth'.
But NOT each person says this AT ALL.

REALLY, WHERE, do 'you', people, get your views from, EXACTLY? You are EXACTLY Right though about the 'fabrication' part. Here is ANOTHER GREAT and PRIME EXAMPLE of 'fabrication' at its best.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:24 pm So, it would seem that we (humankind) have access and capability to work with an infinitely expressive canvas, and what does 'truth' actually have to do with art?
What do 'lies' have to do with art?

To me, you sound like you are 'trying to' "justify" your OWN made up 'fabrications', your own 'distortions', and your own inability to just express what is ACTUALLY True ONLY.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:24 pm Of course, the concept of 'truth' is valuable for the mechanics of human life -- but we take/push it so much farther than that by claiming it is the basis of what we think, denying that others know it, and even claiming to know 'some kind of universal/ultimate truth'.
Yes 'you', "lacewing", do continually deny that "others" know 'the truth'.

'you', ALSO, REFUSE to accept that ANY one could KNOW thee ACTUAL universal and ultimate Truth. This is because of your OWN DISTORTED BELIEFS, which OBVIOUSLY are completely AND utterly LIMITING to 'you'.

And, 'truth' is NOT the basis of what 'you', human beings, think AT ALL. What 'you' think is based SOLELY on what that body 'you' are in has previously experienced ONLY.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:24 pm Where do our fabrications/creations begin and end, and what is our creation and what is truth?
WHERE 'you', human beings', fabrications and creations begin AND end is in IMAGINATION ONLY.

WHAT is 'you', human being's, creation is whatever you MAKE HAPPEN. And,

WHAT is 'truth' just 'that' whatever 'you', individually, ACCEPT and AGREE is 'true'. Which, by the way, is DIFFERENT to WHAT is 'Truth'.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:47 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:40 pm REALLY, HOW MANY TIMES do 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, have to be TOLD some 'thing' BEFORE 'you' can GRASP 'it', COMPREHEND 'it', and UNDERSTAND 'it'?
Dontaskme wrote:
then what other people say to you cannot be believed or disbelieved at all.
Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:40 pmBut 'it' CAN.

I just CHOOSE NOT TO. Because if I DID, then I would NOT be Truly OPEN ANYMORE.
So you are open only to the truth ...
NO, NOT AT ALL.

WHY would 'you' ASSUME such a thing?

WHEN one is Truly OPEN they are OPEN to absolutely EVERY thing.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:47 pm and according to you, no one you are talking to will understand, comprehend, grasp, the truth until they are fully open to it.
Can you EXPLAIN how ANY one COULD grasp, comprehend, and/or understand thee ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth if they are NOT FULLY OPEN to 'It'?

If yes, then WILL YOU?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:47 pm Is that what you are saying?
NO.

'the truth' is just what ANY one accepts and agrees with, which OBVIOUSLY does NOT necessarily relate to thee One and ONLY ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth. This Truth is what can be accepted and agreed with by EVERY one.

Whether I am "talking to" some one or not has NO bearing AT ALL if 'they' WILL grasp, comprehend, or understand or not.

To me, and what I am saying is; ANY one can grasp, comprehend, and/or understand 'a truth'. People just make 'a truth' out of what they accept and agree with is 'true'. So, one just as to accept and agree with some 'thing' being 'true' for a 'truth' to now exist. And, there can be as many 'truths' as there are people existing.

Although these 'truths' may NOT be ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truths AT ALL, while someone is BELIEVING or ACCEPTING some 'thing' to be 'true', then it really is just about a waste of time even bothering in trying to SHOW or PROVE otherwise. People REALLY can ONLY find, grasp, comprehend, understand, and SEE what thee ACTUAL ONLY IRREFUTABLE 'Truth' IS ONLY while they are Truly OPEN.

Does this make ANY sense at all now?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:48 pmYou STILL DO NOT GET IT "immanuel can".
No, you don't get it.

I'm not responding to the dramatics, the CAPs or the nonsense. I'm trying to help you. But if you don't want to be helped, you won't be.

I've told you the truth about what's happening to you. But it's not in my power to increase your self-awareness. You have to decide to do that yourself.

And at the end of the day, it isn't about what you think of me: it's only about what you know, or refuse to know, about yourself.

Best wishes.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

it's pretty damn simple, age

look here at sumthin' you posted just up-thread...

We ALREADY KNOW that 'you' BELIEVE the Everything SHOULD revolve AROUND 'you'. This can be CLEARLY SEEN in your writings and discussions. BUT, 'this experience' is NOT about 'you' AT ALL. 'This experience' is USING 'you' to ACHIEVE what 'it' is that 'we' ALL WANT and DESIRE. Which, AGAIN, is proceeding 'quite nicely', or, in other words, PERFECTLY exactly as it is.

...content aside (just garbage, by the way) the style is atrocious

the weird capitalizations: just cut that shit out

look here how much easier your garbage is to read without the caps...

We already know that 'you' believe the everything should revolve around 'you'. This can be clearly seen in your writings and discussions. But, 'this experience' is not about 'you' at all. 'This experience' is using 'you' to achieve what 'it' is that 'we' all want and desire. Which, again, is proceeding 'quite nicely', or, in other words, perfectly exactly as it is.

now , look here as I tweak the excerpt a bit more...

We already know that you believe everything should revolve around you. This can be clearly seen in your writings and discussions. But, this isn't about you at all. This experience is using you to achieve what we all want and desire. Which, again, is proceeding quite nicely, or, in other words, perfectly exactly as it is.

...so much better, right?

still garbage, content-wise, but a more readable garbage

there's other stuff too -- weird phrases, odd questions, etc. -- that off-puts (we can talk about those, if you like), but, as I say, the caps, that shit has got to go
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:27 pm So, you don't think the Universe is naturally infinitely creative nor should be?
Well, what I think is that all your assertions, all your challenges, and what I am able to understand of what you are trying to establish and where you'd like to receive affirmation (as I assume you seek?), all of this has a function. Or would you say that it has no function at all? And if your argumentation (to use a technical word) has no function, I again ask what function having no function has!
What are the chances you'll be making it up, as so many others have made it up?
You are actually submitting a syllogism. You know that you are right when you suggest that some of the stories that you are referring to as *made up*, if you were to present them here, would be understood to be non-accurate. So if I said "My ancestors crawled up into this level of our creation from underground caverns' (a mythic origin story), you could say, with justification, "You are making this up".

So a) if stories that you can refer to are made up then b) they must all be made up.

But if I am perceiving correctly, in the conversation that is taking place in this thread, we are I think talking more about certain *essences* about some important and crucial dimensions about our life here. If what I say is true, then we need to talk more specifically about those things. I referred to a totally fictional situation (Macbeth and Othello) in which what are said to be, what are understood to be, perennial truths are exposed.

How do you explain that?

I would gather that you -- based on what you write -- have next to no certainties. I would have to suppose that you can refer to nothing certain about *this life*, about your existence in it, and for you (again based on what you write and the function of what you write, if it can be condensed out) there is only stories that are made up. This if I am right is your existential position, your perceptual situation. You are making statements about how life is.

But you also always say "there must be more". That the definitions that people, some people, do work with, seem to you *limiting* and you desire to expand the parameters -- but you never offer them you just refer, rather abstractly, to them.

I find it, I must admit, a strange set of assertions to work with since as it seems to me you are in a prolonged battle against specific people, people out of your part and your context who constrained you. All of this is intelligible to me.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:27 pm What would we be without revolutionary impulses?
Respectfully, I say that this is a vain and somewhat empty line of (rhetorical) questioning. When I referred to revolutionary activities I set them within a context: the undermining of established hierarchies; the invalidation of authority by impetuous youth; and destructive trends set in motion which in a host of areas many people agree resulted in questionable and negative consequences. I've referred to specific sources, named specific people and philosophers as well as their works.

The following seems to me an example of your theoretical presentation:
"Maybe the material was pushed aside for good reasons, such as: its convoluted claims and dogma are toxic. We can gain value from all sorts of things in all sorts of areas. It would not make sense that value can only be found and represented and expressed in a certain way, or within certain boundaries. Why would the Universe be as small as that? Why would man try to shrink it down to that?"
Your argumentation takes the same general form. It is true that you could say basically the same thing about any specific structure.

I hope that you will be able to understand that I cannot take your line of argument seriously. What are you up to? It is not clear to me. (And I wonder if you are really clear about what you are really after).
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:35 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Dubious wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:56 pm I make the suggestion that what you are saying, what you are trying to present, must have an *active* side or aspect. What are you attempting when you make the declarations you do? What result do you desire? I would ask this of Lacewing as well.
My aim is simply towards having clarity and seeing more broadly.
I seek the best questions to ask, then I try to edit and answer the questions myself. I am much influenced by certain others who have asked useful questions and found fertile answers.

Clarity is finding out and carefully editing the most useful questions to ask.

Seeing more broadly involves learning arts and sciences including social sciences and history. Some people disapprove of the more spread out approach to ideas and prefer to focus on a narrow area of interest.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Belinda wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:27 pm Clarity is finding out and carefully editing the most useful questions to ask.

Seeing more broadly involves learning arts and sciences including social sciences and history. Some people disapprove of the more spread out approach to ideas and prefer to focus on a narrow area of interest.
What you say sounds *fair enough*. Yet it occurs to me that we can and perhaps we should consider what could be a subtext here, and I think is more than a subtext when it comes to the sort of declarative, essentially metaphysical stance, that IC (and Christianity generally) takes.

I know that this will amount to inciting more contention, but it has to be talked-through.

I mentioned Macbeth because the tragic figure of Macbeth -- an emblem of Man I take it -- though he might have sought clarity (I bend Lacewing's assertion to a degree to fit my example) he deluded himself. He was tricked. He was set-up. Therefore, he lacked what we can all likely agree was an essential element in his seeing and his discernment.

He made bad choices. And in his case they were tragic and consequential choices.

So now let us turn to the process of gaining clarity. What if we do not have enough information to make the *proper choice*? What if that 'leaping spark' (Plato's metaphor) does not ignite enough?

Seeing I would suggest also involves other elements of the psyche. I am unsure how to define them. I am also unsure how to cultivate them.

In Christianity -- traditional Christianity -- there is an imperative expressed. One could suggest here that if 'clarity' is sought that it might not be found though one has those declared intentions -- if some obstructive factor intervenes or interposes itself.

We all know -- acutely -- the cost of self-deception because we have all, in one situation or another, tricked ourselves and suffered the consequences.

The essence of the Christian message, also a metaphysics, is that there is something that actively seeks to trick us -- the agent of trickery.

It would be interesting to discuss Iago in this capacity, and the larger metaphor of Othello.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:26 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:48 pmYou STILL DO NOT GET IT "immanuel can".
No, you don't get it.

I'm not responding to the dramatics, the CAPs or the nonsense.
LOL Talk about NOT 'GETTING IT', STILL.

I do NOT CARE LESS if you respond to me or NOT. NEVER HAVE, and NEVER WILL.

WHY can you NOT UNDERSTAND and 'GET THIS' MOST SIMPLEST of FACTS?

What I was saying that you DO NOT GET is that I am NOT here, in this forum, to GAIN FRIENDS NOR to CHANGE the way I write just to PLEASE 'you', posters here. Which is what you SO DESPERATELY want me to do.

WHEN will you GRASP and UNDERSTAND this Fact?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:26 pm I'm trying to help you. But if you don't want to be helped, you won't be.
You are trying to HELP ME in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, have you EVER considered that 'what' you are trying to help me for is NOT what I WANT NOR DESIRE?

'you' ARE SO self-focused and SO self-centered "immanuel can" that you do NOT YET seem to UNDERSTAND that if you Truly want to HELP "another", then you HELP 'them' with what 'they' WANT and NOT with with what 'you' WANT.

Which can be a HUGE DIFFERENCE if you were NOT YET AWARE.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:26 pm I've told you the truth about what's happening to you.
LOL Yes 'you' have TOLD me 'your' PERCEPTIONS. Which I continue to THANK YOU FOR.

As they are PROVING FURTHER what I have been SAYING and CLAIMING here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:26 pm But it's not in my power to increase your self-awareness. You have to decide to do that yourself.
And, you come across as the MOST CONDESCENDING one here, in this forum.

As can be VERY CLEARLY SEEN.

Oh, and by the way, WHO is the ONE here who CLAIMS to KNOW Thy Self?

Is it 'you', OR, is it 'I'?

If it is the latter, then this would suggest that this One has FAR MORE Self-Awareness than the 'you' EVER HAD.

Let us put this to the TEST "immanuel can", What is 'you' answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'

If you can NOT YET answer this MOST SIMPLEST of CLARIFYING QUESTION, then this VERY STRONGLY SUGGESTS who is the ONE WHO NEEDS FURTHER increasing in 'self-awareness'.

And, from what you have SHOWN so far, 'you' would NOT be able to do this "yourself".
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:26 pm And at the end of the day, it isn't about what you think of me: it's only about what you know, or refuse to know, about yourself.

Best wishes.
TALK ABOUT DISTRACTION and thus DECEIVING in its HIGHEST FORM.

let us not forget that you claimed that you could so easily prove my replies wrong, and so easily contest what I write. Yet, we are still waiting for you to do any such thing.

So, why is this, again?
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm it's pretty damn simple, age

look here at sumthin' you posted just up-thread...

We ALREADY KNOW that 'you' BELIEVE the Everything SHOULD revolve AROUND 'you'. This can be CLEARLY SEEN in your writings and discussions. BUT, 'this experience' is NOT about 'you' AT ALL. 'This experience' is USING 'you' to ACHIEVE what 'it' is that 'we' ALL WANT and DESIRE. Which, AGAIN, is proceeding 'quite nicely', or, in other words, PERFECTLY exactly as it is.

...content aside (just garbage, by the way) the style is atrocious
GREAT. The MORE 'you', adult human beings, think or BELIEVE my writing style is ATROCIOUS, the BETTER this WILL ALL WORK OUT.

See, the MORE you SEE "atrociousness', and just LOOK FROM this perspective/view ONLY, and NEVER do absolutely ANY CLARIFYING, then the MORE PROOF 'you' ARE PROVIDING of EXACTLY how the 'brain' works, and how it is the 'thoughts/views' (within the brain) ARE STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you', human beings, from being ABLE to SEE and GRASP what thee ACTUAL of 'things' is EXACTLY.

The one who wrote that the sun does NOT go around the earth was probably "picked up" and RIDICULED for just about EVERY thing that one SAID, WROTE, and DID. Yet, what the ACTUAL WORDS where ACTUALLY SAYING, and MEANING and REFERRING TO could NOT be REFUTED.

Which is what I CARE ABOUT MOSTLY.

AGAIN, if ANY one SEES absolutely ANY thing false, wrong, or incorrect with ANY of the ACTUAL WORDS that I USE here, then just POINT THOSE WORDS OUT, explain WHY you think or BELIEVE they are false, wrong, or incorrect, and then we can have Truly PEACEFUL discussion to FIND OUT if they REALLY ARE or NOT.

VERY SIMPLE, REALLY.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm the weird capitalizations: just cut that shit out
ANOTHER one.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm look here how much easier your garbage is to read without the caps...

We already know that 'you' believe the everything should revolve around 'you'. This can be clearly seen in your writings and discussions. But, 'this experience' is not about 'you' at all. 'This experience' is using 'you' to achieve what 'it' is that 'we' all want and desire. Which, again, is proceeding 'quite nicely', or, in other words, perfectly exactly as it is.
There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL, to me.

Also, when and if 'we' were to go back through my writings, I would NOT have the PROOF of where I have highlighted SOME words VERY SPECIFICALLY to SHOW that what 'you' HAD been MISSING or MISINTERPRETING was ACTUALLY 'there' ALL ALONG, and even written in capital letters to make them STAND OUT MORE, for 'you'.

Who the 'we' and the 'you' here is was NOT directed at ANY one specifically.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm now , look here as I tweak the excerpt a bit more...

We already know that you believe everything should revolve around you. This can be clearly seen in your writings and discussions. But, this isn't about you at all. This experience is using you to achieve what we all want and desire. Which, again, is proceeding quite nicely, or, in other words, perfectly exactly as it is.

...so much better, right?
From 'whose' perspective? And, in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

For 'me',

In regards to reading 'it', there is absolutely NOTHING 'better'.

In regards to writing 'it', it is far more time consuming, and thus NOT 'better' AT ALL.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm still garbage, content-wise, but a more readable garbage
Here we have ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of CLAIMS and ACCUSATIONS without ABSOLUTELY ANY thing AT ALL to back up and support THEIR CLAIM and ACCUSATION.

If the content is GARBAGE, to you, then so be it. A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of the content you write is ALSO GARBAGE.

But, if was to think that ANY of that 'content' was False, Wrong, or Incorrect, then instead of just saying "it is garbage" I would ACTUALLY do something and POINT OUT those parts, and then TRY TO create a DISCUSSION about those parts.

Also, and as I have done MANY TIMES ALREADY, when I am NOT absolutely SURE what is being meant or referred to within YOUR GARBAGE "henry quirk", then I just ask a question for CLARIFICATION.

If, and when, you FAIL to CLARIFY, then that is a HUGE CLUE as to just how much ACTUAL GARBAGE there is in 'your content'.

Now, if you would you like to do, as I DO, and POINT OUT ANY thing false, wrong, or incorrect in the content in MY GARBAGE, then PLEASE go right on ahead. We are ALL interested in SEEING what you SEE here.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:48 pm there's other stuff too -- weird phrases, odd questions, etc. -- that off-puts (we can talk about those, if you like), but, as I say, the caps, that shit has got to go
And if ANY TOLD YOU the way you write HAS TO STOP, then would you do it?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Now, I would very much like to talk about what is 'weird' to you, what is 'odd' to you, and whatever the 'etc' refers to, to you. So, please begin.

And, considering the fact that I have continually been inviting people to critique what I write, it seems really rather strange that only you write; "there's other stuff too -- weird phrases, odd questions, etc -- that off-puts 'you', and that, "we can talk about those, if you like".

1. How would I ever know what is a "weird phrase" or an "odd question", to you, if you never tell any of us here?

2. Just so you are fully informed I always want to talk about what you can not understand, okay?

3. Your inability to write words fully just has got to stop.
Age
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Re: Christianity

Post by Age »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:27 pm So, you don't think the Universe is naturally infinitely creative nor should be?
Well, what I think is that all your assertions, all your challenges, and what I am able to understand of what you are trying to establish and where you'd like to receive affirmation (as I assume you seek?), all of this has a function. Or would you say that it has no function at all? And if your argumentation (to use a technical word) has no function, I again ask what function having no function has!
This here is an attempt at 'deception' and 'deceiving'.

Notice that a very simple clarifying question was posed to this one, but because of their complete lack of ability to comprehend and/or be honest, they turn to what what the word 'devil' refers to exactly.

And, what can be clearly seen throughout this forum are the ones who would like to be known as "christians" are the ones who behave most 'devil-like'.

Also the black and white fallacy can be clearly seen here as well.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm
What are the chances you'll be making it up, as so many others have made it up?
You are actually submitting a syllogism. You know that you are right when you suggest that some of the stories that you are referring to as *made up*, if you were to present them here, would be understood to be non-accurate. So if I said "My ancestors crawled up into this level of our creation from underground caverns' (a mythic origin story), you could say, with justification, "You are making this up".
Once again, instead of just pure Honesty, deception is tried once more.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm So a) if stories that you can refer to are made up then b) they must all be made up.

But if I am perceiving correctly, in the conversation that is taking place in this thread, we are I think talking more about certain *essences* about some important and crucial dimensions about our life here. If what I say is true, then we need to talk more specifically about those things. I referred to a totally fictional situation (Macbeth and Othello) in which what are said to be, what are understood to be, perennial truths are exposed.

How do you explain that?
As more distraction.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm I would gather that you -- based on what you write -- have next to no certainties. I would have to suppose that you can refer to nothing certain about *this life*, about your existence in it, and for you (again based on what you write and the function of what you write, if it can be condensed out) there is only stories that are made up. This if I am right is your existential position, your perceptual situation. You are making statements about how life is.
Did it ever occur to you to gain clarity first?

It would have been much quicker than all of this assuming you are doing here, and from which you arrived at some conclusion, which could be absolutely totally false, wrong, and incorrect. So, just a complete waste of time.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm But you also always say "there must be more".
Besides the Fact that there obviously can not be more to thee Truth, this is obviously just a belief that this has and holds, and which is stopping them from moving more forward past this claim, which is obviously False, Wrong, and Incorrect.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm That the definitions that people, some people, do work with, seem to you *limiting* and you desire to expand the parameters -- but you never offer them you just refer, rather abstractly, to them.
This is because they can not move 'more', nor past when they, "themselves", are stuck.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:01 pm I find it, I must admit, a strange set of assertions to work with since as it seems to me you are in a prolonged battle against specific people, people out of your part and your context who constrained you. All of this is intelligible to me.
Besides what has been said here is all very easy and simple to be understood, what else that is happening and occurring here is that you keep 'looking at' "others" instead of just being Honest and revealing that 'self' at all. This deceiving behavior is all part of exactly how and why the word 'devil' came to exist, and is becoming much more KNOWN.
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