Christianity

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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:49 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:39 pm I don't actually see the link between hierarchy and quality that you keep mentiong.
You don't think Adele sings better than I do?
The fact that she sings better than you doesn't contradict anything I've said. She would still sing better than you if she were working in a supermarket and only sang on pub karaoke night.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:43 pm

But what is truth and how does one distinguish it from self justification? How does one through self knowledge acquire the impartiality to witness the truth in themselves rather than drifting into self justification and imagining themselves?
I'm not sure there is such a thing as absolute truth, and if there is I'm not sure we are able to know or understand it. It seems to me that the best we can strive for is our own conditional truth. And if you were to ask me what I mean by that, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to tell you. I hope you find yours, Nick, I honestly do.
The term, "Conditional truth" already tells you what it is as clearly as clear can be.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:01 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:49 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:39 pm I don't actually see the link between hierarchy and quality that you keep mentiong.
You don't think Adele sings better than I do?
The fact that she sings better than you doesn't contradict anything I've said. She would still sing better than you if she were working in a supermarket and only sang on pub karaoke night.
That's true. But "better" means "higher in the hierarchy of that particular value." That's why she gets millions, and I get asked to tone it down. She's a music queen, and I'm a croaker.

I don't resent her a bit.

Arbitrary authorities, on the other hand, like presidents that can't find their butts with two hands, or Prime Ministers that hold parties on lockdowns they've put on others, I have no time for.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Dubious wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:04 pm
The term, "Conditional truth" already tells you what it is as clearly as clear can be.
That's good. So will you explain to Nick what I meant by it then?
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 pm
I don't resent her a bit.
I don't resent her either. For one thing; she has never tried to tell me what to do, and for another; I haven't contributed to her wealth.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 pm
I don't resent her a bit.
I don't resent her either. For one thing; she has never tried to tell me what to do, and for another; I haven't contributed to her wealth.
Of course. But hierarchically, in regard to singing talent, I suppose she's well above us both. And in my case, there would be a whole bunch of people between where I deserve to be placed, and where she is.

Hierarchy is about quality. She's got the quality. I have much less. It's all good, man.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:43 pm
Of course. But hierarchically, in regard to singing talent, I suppose she's well above us both. And in my case, there would be a whole bunch of people between where I deserve to be placed, and where she is.

Hierarchy is about quality. She's got the quality. I have much less. It's all good, man.
I didn't say all human beings were equal in ability, and I don't think I resent natural hierarchy, where someone has a capability that I don't have. It is the artificial hierarchy in our society that I don't like. Maybe it is necessary, but I still don't like it, and I avoid cooperating with it if I can get away with it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:43 pm
Of course. But hierarchically, in regard to singing talent, I suppose she's well above us both. And in my case, there would be a whole bunch of people between where I deserve to be placed, and where she is.

Hierarchy is about quality. She's got the quality. I have much less. It's all good, man.
I didn't say all human beings were equal in ability, and I don't think I resent natural hierarchy, where someone has a capability that I don't have. It is the artificial hierarchy in our society that I don't like. Maybe it is necessary, but I still don't like it, and I avoid cooperating with it if I can get away with it.
Hey, we agree on that entirely.

It's the people who claim to hate ALL hierarchies that are nuts. Because then, they don't value quality in anything.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:01 pm
Hey, we agree on that entirely.

It's the people who claim to hate ALL hierarchies that are nuts. Because then, they don't value quality in anything.
Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I readily accept that people have talents far greater than my own, and have quite often been very glad of it. Social superiority and all that goes with it is what I was talking about.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:30 pm
Dubious wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:04 pm
The term, "Conditional truth" already tells you what it is as clearly as clear can be.
That's good. So will you explain to Nick what I meant by it then?
It's not my prerogative to explain to Nick what you meant by it. The only one who can do that is you. If you think about it, I'm certain you'll arrive at the same conclusion.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:32 pm I am just saying you can't judge it by what the Russians distorted it into.
I beg to differ. Conditions in Russia made certain excesses likely. But there are defects right at the very core of Marx’s theory. Wherever they are applied similar outcomes result.
Actually, I find it incredible that we are still talking about Marxism today. We live in a very different world to the one that Marx was reacting to. I think it is the hard right who are keeping the term alive.
In one sense you are right. That is why it is important to examine Neo-Marxism. ‘They’ switched tactics. (Read Gramsci to better understand).

The ‘hard right’ — a structured conservative and even militant right — is the only faction that is intellectually equipped to mount a defense and an offense. Liberalism cannot do it on its own.

It is a conundrum.
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:46 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:32 pm I am just saying you can't judge it by what the Russians distorted it into.
I beg to differ. Conditions in Russia made certain excesses likely. But there are defects right at the very core of Marx’s theory. Wherever they are applied similar outcomes result.
I don't actually know what Marx said. If he specified the brutality with which Lenin and his thugs executed their plans, then I am mistaken. If the conditions that ordinary citizens found themselves living under when Stalin got hold of the reins was what Marx had in mind, then I am also wrong about that.
The ‘hard right’ — a structured conservative and even militant right — is the only faction that is intellectually equipped to mount a defense and an offense. Liberalism cannot do it on its own.

It is a conundrum.
Not for me it isn't; I don't believe a word of it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Should you listen to Isaiah Berlin’s talk (he is an Absolute Classic Liberal so fear not!) you will in a short time much better understand Marx’s brilliance and his (serious) errors.

When you say you don’t believe a word of the hard right, who are you thinking of? And what don’t you believe?
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Harbal
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 pm
When you say you don’t believe a word of the hard right, who are you thinking of? And what don’t you believe?
I don't care if it's the right lying about the left, or the left lying about the right, I'm sick of people using forums as a soap box. It's just a pesonal thing, it's boring, and it's annoying.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:43 pm

But what is truth and how does one distinguish it from self justification? How does one through self knowledge acquire the impartiality to witness the truth in themselves rather than drifting into self justification and imagining themselves?
I'm not sure there is such a thing as absolute truth, and if there is I'm not sure we are able to know or understand it. It seems to me that the best we can strive for is our own conditional truth. And if you were to ask me what I mean by that, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to tell you. I hope you find yours, Nick, I honestly do.
Some strive to experience their conditioned truths:
“Conan, what is good in life?” Conan: “To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.” —Conan, from the movie “Conan the Barbarian”
Can there be a more honest sincere goal supporting conditioned truths? To the victor belongs the spoils.
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