Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am
Lacewing wrote:Are non-secularists a big part of that majority who you imagine to live in a cave?
A secularist is one who draws human meaning and purpose from society or the earth. A universalist in contrast draws meaning and purpose from the unity of universal structure. This implies that there is something limiting secularism. This division is natural
So, you don't want to answer the question. This implies that you show favor to non-secularists despite how much of the 'majority' they actually represent. And you like to speak of a 'minority' as if the whole world are secularists who are against the
minority. It's a skewed story that glorifies a few and doesn't reflect broader truth.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am
Lacewing wrote:Two things: What makes you think you know me at all? What makes you think you know much of anything if you're in a cave?
I’ve experience that you generate a lot of negativity against some conception of Christianity. Negativity is a classic expression of the limitations of cave life
Do you see yourself as generating a lot of negativity for things you think are corrupt and destructive? Is it really negative that I challenge the toxicity and absurdity in Christianity? I have also expressed appreciation for the good elements that Christianity offers -- such as good people doing good work, and providing inspiration and comfort if/when people need it. But there are both positive and negative elements in Christianity, and I think it's dangerous for the organization to have so much self-serving control, as well as such distorted/dishonest self-preservation. Intoxicated brainwashing makes many people incapable of thinking and moving for themselves beyond it. How can that be good?
Anything can be (and typically is) manipulated and corrupted by humans, and it's easy to see (for those who care to look honestly) how Christianity has been too. Defending that despite all to the contrary enables dangerous deception. Sincere challenges and honest answers help us gain a broader view and more truth. Those who are protecting their entangled identities seem incapable of perceiving anything greater.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am
I may know a lot of things but if I lack value, I lack the force to make use of it. The emotions don’t follow reason. I may know I exist in Plato’s cave but lack the force of will to profit from it. Acquired negative emotions prevent it.
Maybe this makes sense to you somehow, but your idea of value and how this all works is not shared by everyone, and that does not mean that you're right and other people are wrong. You find meaning from certain ideas that have resonated for you, just as other people find meaning from certain ideas that have resonated for them. Can you accept that it doesn't all work for all in a particular way that you imagine?
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am
Lacewing wrote:Why wouldn't 'the divine' manifest through all? Why would 'the divine' need to manifest in any particular way?
How can you expect the divine to manifest in the imagination governing Plato’s Cave? There is no room for grace. Show me someone with a balance soul and control of their negative emotions and I will gladly listen to them. Such a person can through conscious contemplation receive help from above. But they are an extreme rarity.
Can't you imagine that there is more to the divine than you imagine?
Do you think the divine is absent from people who do bad things? People who are being bad, blind, or stupid often don't even realize it, as they think they are fully justified and correct to think and react as they do. Does the divine abandon them for not knowing any better?
Why do you think the divine is only manifested through certain qualities? How do you know how extensive grace is?
Judgments as to the limitations of where and how the divine is manifested are from the notions of men, and such notions are typically meant to serve and glorify an 'individual self' as right and good.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 am
How can I know I am in prison? I shake the bars and try to leave. If I can’t then I must admit my situation. Most just believe prison life is normal.
I agree that many do not realize how much freedom and power they have. But the idea of a cave or a prison is just one model, and you tend to impose that on anyone who thinks differently than you. There are countless paths and ways that people use... and that is, surely, absolutely perfect. There's no reason to think that the divine is not represented -- even if we limited human beings don't quite understand all the reasons/perfection of it.
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:30 amI’ve learned by experience...
We all learn all kinds of different things from each of our experiences. We have many magnificent journeys. Why would the divine be smaller than that, and restricted to only certain views?
I cannot say what works for another, but I can say what doesn't apply to me. And I can appreciate and accept that there is much more to the big picture than what any of us might claim to see or know individually. I challenge such claims that set the claimant above others, and those who claim to be associated with one true god or supreme awareness or 'a special few' which others are not. To me, that's absolutely ridiculous and it's reasonable to challenge it because why wouldn't we all be of the same stuff and accessing the same stuff and manifesting the same stuff? What makes people think they are uniquely separate, and why do they need to feel that way?