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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Walker wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:51 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:44 pm
You prefer to argue Christendom or man made Christianity while I prefer to ponder what the purpose Christianity really is and if the transcendent level actually exists..
Isn't the purpose personal redemption?
I think it's more complex than redemption, but it's utterly personal, yes.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:51 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:44 pm
You prefer to argue Christendom or man made Christianity while I prefer to ponder what the purpose Christianity really is and if the transcendent level actually exists..
Isn't the purpose personal redemption?
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
I don't understand what any of that means, Nick, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. As you go to the trouble of of posting quite a lot of similar matereal, it seems reasonable to assume that you actually want to communicate your ideas to others. If that is the case, is it not important to you that what you say is understood?

Maybe I'm wrong; perhaps most people do understand. If so, please disregard my comments.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
I don't understand what any of that means, Nick, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. As you go to the trouble of of posting quite a lot of similar matereal, it seems reasonable to assume that you actually want to communicate your ideas to others. If that is the case, is it not important to you that what you say is understood?

Maybe I'm wrong; perhaps most people do understand. If so, please disregard my comments.
It would be nice to have more communication but how when its not wanted? Take for example this idea that human being is not one unified whole but rather consists of many parts. I Am would be the goal for conscious man. It is our potential. As we are, man's being is many. Is this really so surprising when we consider what St. Paul observed in Romans 7:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
St Paul admits he is not one unified whole but rather many with opposing interests. Wouldn't that be a great topic for a philosophy forum? Why is this so which Paul verified? I just keep the ideas open for anyone coming along aware of the purpose of Christianity.

I saw your post on another thread You wrote:
I know that Jesus is presented as the personification of goodness, but I'm not really sure why. I'm not trying to be provocative by saying that; I'm just one of those people who doesn't need to try. I know about some of the praiseworthy things Jesus is supposed to have said, but, when I think about it, I'm not aware of any commendable acts that he performed. I certainly don't know what he did that would justify the constructing of a religion round him.
Was Jesus mission to teach man how to be good by secular standards? No, he was serving the universal need for man's conscious evolution.
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Jesus is concerned with the concerns of God while Peter is identified with human concerns and its idea of goodness. These are all good topics but for some reason are avoided by modern philosophy demanding simplifications so as to be acceptable for polite company. That is why I like Simone. She is not afraid to annoy the great beast in service to the truth or the goal of philosophy
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Harbal wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
I don't understand what any of that means, Nick, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. As you go to the trouble of of posting quite a lot of similar matereal, it seems reasonable to assume that you actually want to communicate your ideas to others. If that is the case, is it not important to you that what you say is understood?

Maybe I'm wrong; perhaps most people do understand. If so, please disregard my comments.
You're not. What makes it even more difficult are the responses Nick applies when I have no idea how that refers to anything it responds to. It always looks as if he wanted to detour away from the arguments made by applying another load of incessantly repeated clichés. That's not very instructional. It doesn't help to keep repeating that saying imputed to Socrates "I know nothing" as if he were a prior version of Sergeant Shulz. It's reasonable to assume that a person who knows nothing, delivers nothing...which was not true of Socrates. Just because one reads those whom one regards superior to oneself doesn't preempt one's thinking apparatus from doing the job it was meant to do. Sometimes it turns out "the greats" weren't always so great as imagined.
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
What is SIN Nick_A? Would you like to make a list? ..at least then we might get a better understanding re the above.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:56 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
What is SIN Nick_A? Would you like to make a list? ..at least then we might get a better understanding re the above.
Sin refers to those with the aim of being Christian. The definition of sin is "missing the mark". If one begins a day with the aim of following in the precepts of Christ and sees how quickly they descend into the negative emotions of their lower selves, they see they are in the power of sin.

Romans 3:23 " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We all miss the mark. Welcome to the human condition.
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:48 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:56 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
What is SIN Nick_A? Would you like to make a list? ..at least then we might get a better understanding re the above.
Sin refers to those with the aim of being Christian. The definition of sin is "missing the mark". If one begins a day with the aim of following in the precepts of Christ and sees how quickly they descend into the negative emotions of their lower selves, they see they are in the power of sin.

Romans 3:23 " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We all miss the mark. Welcome to the human condition.
So am I correct in stating that you do not actually know what sin is, since you can't describe even one?
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Dubious wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:17 am
Harbal wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:44 pm
But personal redemption isn't possible for the human condition for two basic reasons. The first is that human being is not one but rather many. A person may be attracted to freedom through their higher selves. but also a slave to sin from their lower selves. The second reason is imagination which justifies the slavery of our lower selves.

This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
I don't understand what any of that means, Nick, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. As you go to the trouble of of posting quite a lot of similar matereal, it seems reasonable to assume that you actually want to communicate your ideas to others. If that is the case, is it not important to you that what you say is understood?

Maybe I'm wrong; perhaps most people do understand. If so, please disregard my comments.
You're not. What makes it even more difficult are the responses Nick applies when I have no idea how that refers to anything it responds to. It always looks as if he wanted to detour away from the arguments made by applying another load of incessantly repeated clichés. That's not very instructional. It doesn't help to keep repeating that saying imputed to Socrates "I know nothing" as if he were a prior version of Sergeant Shulz. It's reasonable to assume that a person who knows nothing, delivers nothing...which was not true of Socrates. Just because one reads those whom one regards superior to oneself doesn't preempt one's thinking apparatus from doing the job it was meant to do. Sometimes it turns out "the greats" weren't always so great as imagined.
Socrates admits "I Know Nothing". For you the man of wisdom knows facts. Who is right? Can you answer this simple question the man of facts should be able to do. My question is "What is Man"?
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:05 am
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:48 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:56 am

What is SIN Nick_A? Would you like to make a list? ..at least then we might get a better understanding re the above.
Sin refers to those with the aim of being Christian. The definition of sin is "missing the mark". If one begins a day with the aim of following in the precepts of Christ and sees how quickly they descend into the negative emotions of their lower selves, they see they are in the power of sin.

Romans 3:23 " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We all miss the mark. Welcome to the human condition.
So am I correct in stating that you do not actually know what sin is, since you can't describe even one?
Imagine you have just left a church service and vow not to be like these superficial people arguing over foolish things. The next thing you know The delays on the road make you experience road rage insulting your pride. For a while sin becomes dominant so you curse out these drivers causing road rage in you.

Do the other drivers cause road rage or is the cause of road rage in you?
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:10 am
Dubious wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:17 am
Harbal wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:46 pm

I don't understand what any of that means, Nick, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. As you go to the trouble of of posting quite a lot of similar matereal, it seems reasonable to assume that you actually want to communicate your ideas to others. If that is the case, is it not important to you that what you say is understood?

Maybe I'm wrong; perhaps most people do understand. If so, please disregard my comments.
You're not. What makes it even more difficult are the responses Nick applies when I have no idea how that refers to anything it responds to. It always looks as if he wanted to detour away from the arguments made by applying another load of incessantly repeated clichés. That's not very instructional. It doesn't help to keep repeating that saying imputed to Socrates "I know nothing" as if he were a prior version of Sergeant Shulz. It's reasonable to assume that a person who knows nothing, delivers nothing...which was not true of Socrates. Just because one reads those whom one regards superior to oneself doesn't preempt one's thinking apparatus from doing the job it was meant to do. Sometimes it turns out "the greats" weren't always so great as imagined.
Socrates admits "I Know Nothing". For you the man of wisdom knows facts. Who is right? Can you answer this simple question the man of facts should be able to do. My question is "What is Man"?
...and what does Socrates knowing nothing have to do with me or anyone else but Socrates?

As for...What is man? He is what I am; he is what you are; he is what Socrates was. The same but different. You believe these questions are profound! They are not!
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:22 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:05 am
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:48 am

Sin refers to those with the aim of being Christian. The definition of sin is "missing the mark". If one begins a day with the aim of following in the precepts of Christ and sees how quickly they descend into the negative emotions of their lower selves, they see they are in the power of sin.

Romans 3:23 " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We all miss the mark. Welcome to the human condition.
So am I correct in stating that you do not actually know what sin is, since you can't describe even one?
Imagine you have just left a church service and vow not to be like these superficial people arguing over foolish things. The next thing you know The delays on the road make you experience road rage insulting your pride. For a while sin becomes dominant so you curse out these drivers causing road rage in you.

Do the other drivers cause road rage or is the cause of road rage in you?
Nick, you are confusing the issue. We are not talking about road rage we are talking about what you term as SIN. You continually mention the term sin, but as yet you have not provided a single instance of what would be considered a sin in the eyes of Christ or God.

Go ahead, surely you must have a list - or is the list far too long?
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Nick quoted Harbal:
I know that Jesus is presented as the personification of goodness, but I'm not really sure why. I'm not trying to be provocative by saying that; I'm just one of those people who doesn't need to try. I know about some of the praiseworthy things Jesus is supposed to have said, but, when I think about it, I'm not aware of any commendable acts that he performed. I certainly don't know what he did that would justify the constructing of a religion round him.
We can discount the miracles attributed to Jesus. What remains is the historical fact of the Roman occupation of Palestine. Jesus was for known reasons a nuisance to the Romans. We know how this works when an individual is a nuisance to an illiberal regime; the regime kills the individual, sometimes having to justify the killing with a lie. Jesus remained faithful to his cause until death while knowing the risks he took would end in his crucifixion. Jesus may have been an active freedom fighter for all we know, however the Gospel writers wanted to portray him as an icon of wisdom. Paul especially wanted to sell Jesus to the Romans in which Paul was largely successful.

Jesus's willingness to sacrifice his life for his cause was a commendable act. He was not a martyr but a freedom fighter at the very least for the right of Jews to keep their religion unadulterated by kowtowing to the Roman authority.

Nick believes in sin. Sin is not the same as natural evil. The notion of sin depends on the notion that human nature is divided into 'higher' and 'lower' natures. This notion is medieval and contrary to modern European thought which views human nature as related to animal nature which is neither good or bad.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Harbal »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:45 am
Nick believes in sin. Sin is not the same as natural evil. The notion of sin depends on the notion that human nature is divided into 'higher' and 'lower' natures. This notion is medieval and contrary to modern European thought which views human nature as related to animal nature which is neither good or bad.
Well I still have no idea what Nick is actually striving for. Is it about living your life in a particular mental state? Is it about how we live together as society. Is it all just lofty sounding meaninglessness, and Nick casting himself in a fantasy role of some kind of tortured prophet. Is his passion genuine, do you think?
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Harbal wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:19 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:45 am
Nick believes in sin. Sin is not the same as natural evil. The notion of sin depends on the notion that human nature is divided into 'higher' and 'lower' natures. This notion is medieval and contrary to modern European thought which views human nature as related to animal nature which is neither good or bad.
Well I still have no idea what Nick is actually striving for. Is it about living your life in a particular mental state? Is it about how we live together as society. Is it all just lofty sounding meaninglessness, and Nick casting himself in a fantasy role of some kind of tortured prophet. Is his passion genuine, do you think?

Nick wrote:
This is why the New Covenant was introduced. It brought the help of the spirit to deter the influences of the self serving negative emotions responsible for the power of sin. It requires accepting the help of the Spirit the power of sin struggles against. The New Covenant offers a potential but only a few are open to in reality. The power of sin is too strong
The New Covenant is the advent of Jesus interpreted as the Christ whose sacrifice atones for sins. Since God chose to be incarnated this is a gracious act of God's towards us and moreover we cannot be freed from the afore -said 'sin' unless we accept that only God's grace can do it for us. It's about guilt . The modern idea is that there are no sins and we need to look at moral evil the same way we regard natural evil.
Nick is medieval and he sincerely wants us to believe that sin exists and that grace is what will save us from sin.
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