Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Iam
Trust me. If IC or any other Christian here can provide me with an answer that includes demonstrable proof that their God does in fact reside in Heaven...evidence on par with establishing that the Pope does in fact reside in the Vatican...see if I won't be satisfied with their answer.
You seem to be describing Christendom rather then Christianity. Simone Weil describes the Christianity that I know of:
The historical "double stain" on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22] Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome. As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv: the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.
The Christian God is not the Old Testament personal God. The Christian God is the ineffable source described as the ONE by Plotinus. The influence of Jewish nationalism and having become the religion of Rome drove Christianity underground and devolved Christianity into Christendom which is a religion of power rather than a religion of slaves to the human condition. The purpose of Christianity is to experience the way out in order to become human.

I would rather discuss Christianity and its purpose rather than arguing interpretations of Christendom with those needing a religion of power.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:43 am

Have you verified any of this dream? For example I can be in a room with ten others and verify that we have the same experience with the laws of physics, chemistry, and math. We may all experience gravity. Is that just a dream from ten people?
Life is analogous to a dream.

The images, emotions and sensations within each nightly dream are experienced by the same one consciousness that experiences the images, thoughts, emotions and sensations in daily life. Everything is within consciousness itself and not one experience is ever out of it or separate from it.

Life is happening within the paradigm of the dream state. It is not possible to imagine something outside of the dream state when our consciousness is still within it.What we are is that which is watching in every instant moment.

Life is a dream we awaken from. To awaken from the dream of separation. ''Dream'' being a metaphor for Twoness/ into Oneness.

There can be an awakening from the dream of separation from apparent twoness to what is always Oneness where one awakens from the dream of separation created by the egoic mind, a realisation that our sense of self, which has been formed and constructed out of our ideas, beliefs, and images, is not really who we are. People, confused by ego, think they are doers of all kinds of work while it is being done by the energy of nature.


__________


You have never "done" anything. Because the mind has conceived itself to be an individual it conceives itself as the "thinker" and also the "actor" or "doer." Yet it is not anyone. The mind is not a thing or an entity but a process, the thinking process. It is simply a process that is happening automatically, in the same way the heart is beating automatically.

~ Galen Sharpe


From the perspective of the infinite it is obvious that the individual self absolutely does not exist. The idea that we have a self that controls, arbitrates, or is the doer behind our actions, is absurd. The individual self is nothing but an idea of who we are. Ideas are ideas - and nothing more.

~ Suzanne Segal


________


And so even for the ''sense of self'' who hates life, and hates suffering and pain, like the (egoic 'sense of self') known conceptually as 'dontaskme' for example: is in reality: No One hating life, or hating suffering and pain. And that's a double speak. It's also a double blow to the (ego) sense-of-self..insofar as life will always continue to be one humongous unavoidable train wreck happening over and over and over again, forever and ever. There's just no stopping this run away train, there is no undo button to press. And that realisation, to me, absolutely sucks, real bad.


_________

Final note to self:

There is neither creation nor destruction. Neither destiny nor free will. Neither path nor achievement. This is the final truth.

~ Ramana Maharshi


Everything else is just wishful fanciful whimsical thinking to assuage what we will never be in control of and what we will never know of.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:08 am Iam
Trust me. If IC or any other Christian here can provide me with an answer that includes demonstrable proof that their God does in fact reside in Heaven...evidence on par with establishing that the Pope does in fact reside in the Vatican...see if I won't be satisfied with their answer.
You seem to be describing Christendom rather then Christianity. Simone Weil describes the Christianity that I know of:
The historical "double stain" on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22] Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome. As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv: the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.
The Christian God is not the Old Testament personal God. The Christian God is the ineffable source described as the ONE by Plotinus. The influence of Jewish nationalism and having become the religion of Rome drove Christianity underground and devolved Christianity into Christendom which is a religion of power rather than a religion of slaves to the human condition. The purpose of Christianity is to experience the way out in order to become human.

I would rather discuss Christianity and its purpose rather than arguing interpretations of Christendom with those needing a religion of power.
I'd discuss Christianity with you but not "its purpose". An ideology such as is Christianity does not have a purpose but the ideology's supporters have a purpose or purposes.
promethean75
Posts: 4932
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"I would rather discuss Christianity and its purpose rather than arguing interpretations of Christendom with those needing a religion of power."

This is badly written. I would like to submit an edited version for the final draft:

"I would rather discuss Christianity than argue about interpretations of Christendom with those needing a religion of power."
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

DaM
Life is a dream we awaken from. To awaken from the dream of separation. ''Dream'' being a metaphor for Twoness/ into Oneness.

There can be an awakening from the dream of separation from apparent twoness to what is always Oneness where one awakens from the dream of separation created by the egoic mind, a realisation that our sense of self, which has been formed and constructed out of our ideas, beliefs, and images, is not really who we are. People, confused by ego, think they are doers of all kinds of work while it is being done by the energy of nature.
In the past people were content to experience noesis and intuition to satisfy the need for truth the depth of our being is called to experience. But more recently people need the truths of science to verify the need for a conscious source of creation.

You assert that reality can only be wholeness making separation an illusion. But what if Wholeness and separation as a lawful division of the whole simultaneously exist on different levels of reality; one within the other? Can every-thing exist within the wholeness of ONE?

Use white light as an example. It contains all the vibrations that can devolve into our experience of colors. Red, yellow, and blue, are the first lawful division of white light. Are the vibrations of primary colors a dream or a necessity to complete the wholeness of God? Is the lawful division of the whole into its parts a dream or a lawful necessity?
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

It seems that Belinda and Promethean prefer to argue a meaningless Christendom with nothing other than a secular purpose. But does Christianity have an essential purpose for our being defining its value? Am I the only person here considering this question?
Dubious
Posts: 4000
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:21 pm It seems that Belinda and Promethean prefer to argue a meaningless Christendom with nothing other than a secular purpose. But does Christianity have an essential purpose for our being defining its value? Am I the only person here considering this question?
With everything going on in the world, whatever Christianity means or is supposed to mean is of little concern to most people who are just trying to make it from day to day. It's not important because, for one thing, everyone defines differently. There is no single definition valid for all as should be understood by now. These kinds of value and purpose inquiries are mostly anchored in philosophy forums where it becomes a kind of debating game. How long, for example, have you been articulating it usually by the same quotes from the same people. Do you know more now, I mean actually know, than you did the first time you made such examinations?

Everyone who has ever lived, died without knowing about any value or purpose their lives are supposedly endowed with except that artificially created by religion and mysticisms of all sorts. But still life goes on until all these metaphysical inquiries resolve themselves in oblivion...as well as all others. Nature deals exclusively in life and death processes, which is really all one process. There are no metaphysical conundrums hanging about. Such questions are only inherent to the living. The cosmos has no idea what you're talking about.
promethean75
Posts: 4932
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"whatever Christianity means or is supposed to mean is of little concern to most people who are just trying to make it from day to day."

Bingo. There are no genuine philosophical problems, certainly no metaphysical problems. And everything Christianity would have you do, you're already more or less doing that naturally anyway*. Instead, our real concerns are financial, so a religion ain't gonna help us and we don't go to one for solutions to our real problems. Praying duddint count.

* those human behaviors called altruistic, sympathetic, compassionate, charitable, etc., are all adaptive behaviors that have evolved over time naturally as social group size and environments changed.

We don't have to be encouraged to not beat the guy next to us over the head. We already don't want to do that. Only under the rarest of philosophical occasions would beating the guy next to you over the head benefit anyone... and you know that naturally. The brain rules that behavior out already. You don't need a religion to explain why that is and how that happens. Ergo, religion isn't necessary to explain morality or the moral behavior of human beings. And wherever you find religion trying to do so, it's proselytizing.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

dubious and promethean, The purpose of Christianity is rebirth. It is the evolution of our being into a higher quality. All other forms of life on earth evolve to their limit, die, and are reborn. Consider a dog. It lives, dies and its essence is reborn into a recurring cycle of its species.

Man is unique on earth in that it is dual natured. Its lower parts are born from the earth while its higher parts descended from above. Its evolution is not limited to the earth but rather by its origin.

Christian rebirth or its purpose is to enable conscious evolution with the help from the Spirit into a higher quality of being. This is freedom from the meaninglessness of the earth into the quality of being in which human meaning and purpose exists.

1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Paul is speaking of rebirth into a higher quality of being.
"The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God." ~ Meister Eckhart
There is a quality of our being which exists as a seed. In some it is strong enough to grow regardless of how our acquired personalities fight against it. The purpose of Christianity is rebirth and the growth of this seed. The darkness of the world and the negative emotions learned over time struggle against it. Yet the potential is there for a higher quality of being in which the purpose of our universe and Man within it becomes clear. Evolved Man finds it natural to serve universal purpose. Some are killed for inspiring conscious contemplation and practicing its results.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Nick, I edited (in a small way) this line of yours...
Man is unique on earth in that it is dual natured. Its lower parts are born from the earth while its higher parts descended from above. Its evolution is not limited to the earth but rather by its origin.
Man is unique on earth in that (he) is dual natured. (His substance is) born from the earth while (his spirit) descended from above.

...so it more closely aligns with my own thinkin'.

I confess: a great deal of what you write leaves me cold, but this line... 👍
promethean75
Posts: 4932
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

Okay but do the deists believe in some kind of return to that 'above' state they descended from after death... or do they believe life continues in some other way?

What are the details of their version of the immortality of the soul? Newton, Jefferson, Paine, Emerson, any of em. Give it to me.
promethean75
Posts: 4932
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

That's all childish pseudo-erotic neoplatonism tho, Nick. All the higher self rebirth talk is a nervous idealistic response to the existential dread we feel when we recognize our own meaninglessness. It's the Peter pan syndrome basically.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

promethean75 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:55 am Okay but do the deists believe in some kind of return to that 'above' state they descended from after death... or do they believe life continues in some other way?

What are the details of their version of the immortality of the soul? Newton, Jefferson, Paine, Emerson, any of em. Give it to me.
This is Henry's question. My concern is for esoteric Christianity.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Okay but do the deists believe in some kind of return to that 'above' state they descended from after death... or do they believe life continues in some other way?
I don't.
What are the details of their version of the immortality of the soul? Newton, Jefferson, Paine, Emerson, any of em. Give it to me.
I can't cuz I don't know 'em, and I wouldn't if I did cuz I don't care what them guys thought.

-----

You dumb motherfuckers need to disabuse yourselves of the idea that deism is a club with set rules and a rulin' body and a mission statement. Shit, there isn't even a common understanding of what it means for God to be absent or indifferent or withdrawn.

Certainly, you dumb motherfuckers need to stop lookin' to me as forum defender of vanilla deism or famous deists of yesteryear.

I shouldn't, I guess, blame you dumb motherfuckers: most of you have so deeply immersed yourselves in garbage thinkin', herd thinkin', you can't help but treat everyone as the cattle you are.

Henry sez he's libertarian, so he must align with all libertarians; henry sez he's a deist, so he must align with all deists; he favor fee enterprise, so he must love corporate capitalism, and on and on...

Fuck you, you dumb motherfucker, you.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

promethean75 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:12 am That's all childish pseudo-erotic neoplatonism tho, Nick. All the higher self rebirth talk is a nervous idealistic response to the existential dread we feel when we recognize our own meaninglessness. It's the Peter pan syndrome basically.
Then you believe that the Great Chain of Being is just nonsense. Where Man resides on earth in the great chain of being, the earth is just a machine performing a function of transforming substances. Human meaning doesn't exist on earth and you are right to conclude it to be meaningless for Man. However the conscious evolution of Man reveals human meaning and purpose animal man tied to the earth cannot have. Evolved Man receives from above and gives to below. For animal Man there is only the struggle within the below or the will to power Nietzsche referred to
Post Reply