Christianity

[Age]

IC...I know you are an intelligent being. I can only know that because I am intelligent too, but I have personally been frustrated with the human beings capacity to not really understand what is meant by love.

Do you know what love means IC...you say you want meaningful conversation with others ..how about I start a thread about the true meaningful meaning of what love means?

Will you be willing to talk about this subject? I have no secret agenda here, I'm not trying to pull you, or make a move on you, or anything like that, so don't think I am..I just want to connect with another being that I know exists somewhere in this universe who is genuinely interested in understanding the true and real meaning of love...which is what God is supposed to be ..right?

Let me know when, and if, you open a thread about what 'love' REALLY IS. This, also, can be explained and understood very simply and very easily, that is once one KNOWS HOW to UNDERSTAND and SEE 'things' FULLY, or properly AND correctly.

I will not insult you ever again, ok...and another thing, if I ever need a friend to rely on in times of deep trouble, I would only choose you to talk to, I would call on you, that's how much I trust in someone like you.

I know I'm an idiot, I'm the idiot not you.

PS..I love henry too, but not sure about the 3rd amigo.. walker, I'm still trying to figure the walker character out.


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If you, supposedly, 'love' ONLY 'some' people, then 'you' have NOT YET UNDERSTOOD what True 'love' REALLY IS.

[Dubious]

I never said it was a conclusion. I said it was a “result as compared to".

A "criterion" is not a "result" at all.

It's a standard by which one hopes to form and justify a "result" or "conclusion."

I continue to talk to Atheists in the hope of hearing something new...some challenging, novel, interesting, heretofore unthought-of allegation, something I haven't heard before and dispatched a dozen times. *** But I must report that your conversation of the moment is exceedingly dull, routine and unchallenging. You've raised no old Atheist saw that is not abundantly dealt with on myriad apologetics websites, to which you could easily have referred before now, and thus, none of this cavilling requires I lift a finger. Not a single interesting, innovative or insightful idea has come out of you so far, in regards to this topic.

So I'll give you one more shot, in the vain hope you're capable of better; then I'll just start not paying attention to you again. Life's too short to waste on a string of cliches.

Go ahead.

It's really very simple...results are created through research, investigations, etc., and tested accordingly. These become the criteria which measures the validity of something else under investigation or related, which is how we accumulate what's called knowledge, which amounts to a filtering of higher and lower probabilities. Based on the results of investigations of many fields these become the criterion upon which the accuracy of the bible, for instance, is measured and compared to and upon which it fails miserably having near zero probability of being true.

I'm sorry if there aren't enough operating neurons left to comprehend the functioning of a simple methodology, though its workings may be infinitely complex. If you did, the literal acceptance of the bible as a true statement would be impossible. But even THAT wouldn't be required to confirm its absurdity! Just a couple of simple thought experiments.

1 - Three quarters of the population would be doomed to oblivion or hell who, though religious, did not believe in Jesus.

2 - The universe is approximately 96 billion light years in diameter, and that's only the observable part. The new James Webb Telescope could easily fine-tune that to an even greater extent. What is the probability, based solely on the criterion or standard of simple logic endorsing what the bible has to say, if accepted literally, but as another ancient document written by humans whose importance was hyped beyond bounds by a single political act. How does this compare to some intensely tribalistic warlord of a god who decided that among all his creation he's going to manage only ONE people and the rest can go and screw themselves with having created a universe of billions of galaxies and trillions of planets? Put another way...what's your definition of insanity!

***Of course you do! It must be clear to most, you have no idea how to reply; what remains is complete and constant denial of what I or others have written. If it doesn't conform with your views, all others are simply thrust aside. There is no other method left for you, which is the reason I keep saying, you're not the man to defend the faith even in the most haphazard manner.


Case in point...

I wrote...
Logic, reason, history, archaeology, biblical research and not least science itself.

You wrote...
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope...aaaaaand...nope.


That sums it up: don't know what to say, say NOPE instead. Jesus has made you into a nope addict. It reminds me of Khrushchev, but he was only pretending!

[Immanuel Can]

...results are created through research,...these become the criteria

You don't know what a "criterion" is. Webster's will set you straight.

cri·​te·​ri·​on | \ krī-ˈtir-ē-ən
also krə- \
plural criteria\ krī-​ˈtir-​ē-​ə
also krə-​ \ also criterions

Essential Meaning of criterion
: something that is used as a reason for making a judgment or decision
e.g. High test scores are one criterion [=standard] used by universities to determine which students to admit. What were the criteria used to choose the winner?

I'm sorry if there aren't enough operating neurons left to comprehend

That's alright. You tried your best.

[Dubious]

...results are created through research,...these become the criteria

You don't know what a "criterion" is. Webster's will set you straight.

cri·​te·​ri·​on | \ krī-ˈtir-ē-ən
also krə- \
plural criteria\ krī-​ˈtir-​ē-​ə
also krə-​ \ also criterions

Essential Meaning of criterion
: something that is used as a reason for making a judgment or decision
e.g. High test scores are one criterion [=standard] used by universities to determine which students to admit. What were the criteria used to choose the winner?

I'm sorry if there aren't enough operating neurons left to comprehend

That's alright. You tried your best.

[Dubious]

...results are created through research,...these become the criteria

You don't know what a "criterion" is. Webster's will set you straight.

cri·​te·​ri·​on | \ krī-ˈtir-ē-ən
also krə- \
plural criteria\ krī-​ˈtir-​ē-​ə
also krə-​ \ also criterions

Essential Meaning of criterion
: something that is used as a reason for making a judgment or decision
e.g. High test scores are one criterion [=standard] used by universities to determine which students to admit. What were the criteria used to choose the winner?

I'm sorry if there aren't enough operating neurons left to comprehend

That's alright. You tried your best.

Criterion...

a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided.

Try judging or deciding something without making a comparison...a feat you managed beyond most people's imagination.

Look where it got you...into a bible rut.

[Age]

I spent a loooong time with you, waiting for you to say something that wasn't empty drama, hoping something interesting would be forthcoming.

Suppose I do come up with something meaningful, suppose every single human being alive were able to connect with perfect meaningful dialog ...then what? we all say something meaningful to each other, then what...we all have a big party to celebrate our joint meaningful reality. Then what?

What are we all to do with our meaning?

When 'you', adult human beings, find out what thee True 'meaning' IS for 'life', and 'living', 'love', et cetera, then 'you' STOP abusing the children, like 'you' have been, and then EVERY one can and WILL START living peacefully TOGETHER, as One, and as the way 'things' are 'meant to be' and are, in fact, REALLY ARE.

..it's almost like meaning is something we must strive for, but why?

Because 'meaning', itself, provides CLARITY, and it is CLARITY which is what 'you' are LOOKING FOR, correct?

Your questions here indicate that you are LOOKING FOR CLARITY. And, also, who REALLY wants to be CONFUSED anyway?

Why does conversation have to be meaningful ..

Conversations do NOT have to be meaningful AT ALL. One would only have to LOOK AT probably about 99% of conversations, in the days when this was being written, to SEE that conversations, themselves, do NOT have to be 'meaningful' AT ALL.

what will that change about the nature of reality?

There is ABSOLUTELY NO THING that could change the 'nature of reality'. WHY would you even ASSUME there was ANY thing, and/or, WHY would you even ASSUME that just having a Truly 'meaningful' conversation 'would' change ANY thing about the 'nature of reality'?

[Immanuel Can]

Criterion...

Well, nobody can say I didn't give you a chance.

I think I'll spend my time on others' responses. There just isn't enough meat here.

[Dubious]

Criterion...

Well, nobody can say I didn't give you a chance.

I think I'll spend my time on others' responses. There just isn't enough meat here.

There's more than enough meat...much more. It just isn't to your taste, especially when facts are hard to swallow!

[Immanuel Can]

Criterion...

Well, nobody can say I didn't give you a chance.

I think I'll spend my time on others' responses. There just isn't enough meat here.

There's more than enough meat...

For you, maybe. You might find your own offerings challenging and wonderful. I don't doubt you do.

But they bore me to tears, and I find myself wishing heartily for a better standard of opponent...or an opponent with better standards.

[Dubious]

Well, nobody can say I didn't give you a chance.

I think I'll spend my time on others' responses. There just isn't enough meat here.

There's more than enough meat...

For you, maybe. You might find your own offerings challenging and wonderful. I don't doubt you do.

But they bore me to tears, and I find myself wishing heartily for a better standard of opponent...or an opponent with better standards.

I thought you already had one in Alexis who is nowhere near as disagreeable as I am? By all means, let me not interfere with your profound exchange of ideas!

I suspect that which bores you to tears are all your denials against arguments you are incapable of responding to. I agree that constantly defaulting to "nope" is not exactly stimulating. How many thousands would those be, BTW?

[Immanuel Can]

I thought you already had one in Alexis who is nowhere near as disagreeable as I am?

He's very smart...I'm delighted to be talking with him.

His thinking is pretty much devoid of cliche's, commonplaces and old canards. He's read stuff, thinks carefully, and forms his views thoughtfully. I like very much that he's able to swap ideas intelligently, and I don't at all get miffed about him not agreeing with me. I've never considered that a necessary element for good conversation.

Just to talk with the guy is an opportunity to refine one's thinking. So he's great.

By all means, let me not interfere with your profound exchange of ideas!

That's an excellent suggestion.

Or, if you preferred, you could come up with some of your own, in which case your (thoughtful) contributions might be an asset. But I'll leave that in your choice.

[Dubious]

I thought you already had one in Alexis who is nowhere near as disagreeable as I am?

He's very smart...I'm delighted to be talking with him.

His thinking is pretty much devoid of cliche's, commonplaces and old canards. He's read stuff, thinks carefully, and forms his views thoughtfully. I like very much that he's able to swap ideas intelligently, and I don't at all get miffed about him not agreeing with me. I've never considered that a necessary element for good conversation.

Just to talk with the guy is an opportunity to refine one's thinking. So he's great.

By all means, let me not interfere with your profound exchange of ideas!

That's an excellent suggestion.

Or, if you preferred, you could come up with some of your own, in which case your (thoughtful) contributions might be an asset. But I'll leave that in your choice.

Well then kudos that you have at least one likeable, intelligent, insightful debating buddy. May your mutual insights inspire each other!

[Dontaskme]

When 'you', adult human beings, find out what thee True 'meaning' IS for 'life', and 'living', 'love', et cetera, then 'you' STOP abusing the children, like 'you' have been, and then EVERY one can and WILL START living peacefully TOGETHER, as One, and as the way 'things' are 'meant to be' and are, in fact, REALLY ARE.

While it is true that humans have a keen sense of self awareness, in that they can know that pain and suffering is not an ideal situation and would rather the situation is not happening, insofar as they would choose pleasure and comfort in place of misery and pain. That's just common knowledge. And because the self-aware self can know that physical pain is obnoxious you would also know that other sentience would have the same capacity to feel what you yourself feel. So that's where the compassion and empathy come in, that's what happens when the self aware consciousness is able to become aware of what feels good and what feels bad and is then able to understand the consequences of any deliberate intent to cause pain to another would always be a very bad idea, because you would not usually cause pain to your own self.


Having said all that...when the shit hits the fan and all hell breaks loose ..as in if a war between many countries break out, or the weather takes an unexpected turn for the worse, the consequences of these events can be crippling to people who have been used to having their lives all so comfortable and easy. In such events, people could turn rabid in their thirst to survive. Just like you see in all those zombie movies. So to me, that's how nature works, it will ultimately turn on itself in a last bid to survive. There is no such reality as a utopian reality in nature, nature is a serial killer...it is only humans that have invented a peaceful world, in the attempt to escape from the actual reality that nature is a meat grinder, and so we only feel compassion for nature because we are nature. Nature kills to survive another day, and to survive another day it has to kill. Anyone who denies this obvious fact, is just living in lala land.

So to me, I cannot see the point in living this repeat and rinse reality...over and over again. But it seems we do, so then that's just the nature of it.


There will only be peace when you stop making love.


If you know that war is bad, then you will also know that peace is good, you'll know that war cannot be stopped, until you stop making knowers...only when there is no one to know war, will peace remain.

While knowing that abuse is bad, the abuse will continue...until there is no one left to know abuse...that's how it works AGE.

Stop making love, which can know war, and all that will remain is peace.

Yeah, it's a nice ideal idea...living in a loving world where every one loves every body...but it's not how it works, it's hopeless to think that there is only a one sided reality, there is no such reality...reality is two sides of the same coin...can't have a one sided coin...you just can't. Reality is rooted in conditions, if the conditions are ripe the condition will manifest.

There is no condition placed upon any condition to be any thing other than what it is, reality is totally and utterly unconditionally free to manifest as it wills.

.

[Age]

When 'you', adult human beings, find out what thee True 'meaning' IS for 'life', and 'living', 'love', et cetera, then 'you' STOP abusing the children, like 'you' have been, and then EVERY one can and WILL START living peacefully TOGETHER, as One, and as the way 'things' are 'meant to be' and are, in fact, REALLY ARE.

While it is true that humans have a keen sense of self awareness, in that they can know that pain and suffering is not an ideal situation and would rather the situation is not happening, insofar as they would choose pleasure and comfort in place of misery and pain.

But is 'that' REALLY what 'self-awareness' ACTUALLY IS.

KNOWING that pain, and/or suffering, is NOT an ideal situation and KNOWING one would rather that situation is NOT happening, I would say is just a COMMON KNOWING among the animal species, like 'you', human beings are.

And, that 'self-awareness' is an EVOLVING 'thing', and that the 'self-awareness' that 'you', adult human beings, have in the days when this was being written was somewhat better, or more advanced, than say the humans who lived one or two millions before 'you', or that even the 'self-awareness' 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, was somewhat better, or more advanced, than say the new born human beings, in the EXACT SAME day and age.

That's just common knowledge.

Okay, so WHY did you bring this up then, and, WHY make the CLAIM that choosing pleasure and comfort in place of misery and pain has to do with 'self-knowledge' when it CLEARLY DOES NOT.

'self-knowledge', by definition even, would be knowledge about thee 'self', and would NOT have much, if ANY, at all REALLY in relation to pleasure and comfort. For example, a dog KNOWS that it likes to lay in sunlight or in front of a fireplace on a cool day without EVER REALLY having ANY knowledge AT ALL about "its" 'self'. This KNOWING and PREFERRING of 'pleasure and comfort' OVER 'pain and suffering' is because of the senses of the body and NOTHING about the knowledge/information of thy 'self' stored within the body.

And because the self-aware self

If 'you' want to here CLAIM that there is a 'self-aware' 'self', then 'you', a 'self', should also be able to explain who and/or what this 'self' IS, EXACTLY?

Or, are 'you' NOT a 'self-aware' 'self', YET?

can know that physical pain is obnoxious you would also know that other sentience would have the same capacity to feel what you yourself feel.[/quote]

Would say a 'sentience', let us call 'a worm' here for now, which does NOT have the sense to feel (but may have another or no other sense instead) have the capacity to feel what I feel?

In other words, just because there is OTHER 'sentience', this is NO WAY MEANS that EVERY one of them has the EXACT SAME 'senses' as, let us say, the 'human being' does.

So that's where the compassion and empathy come in, that's what happens when the self aware consciousness is able to become aware of what feels good and what feels bad and is then able to understand the consequences of any deliberate intent to cause pain to another would always a very bad idea, because you would not usually cause pain to your own self.

HOW True COMPASSION AND EMPATHY are OBTAINED is slightly different, but 'you' are STILL a LONG WAY OFF from LEARNING and UNDERSTANDING this, that is; if you keep on going the way you are and have been.

Anyway, the proposition, 'Do unto others what you would want done unto you', ONLY works, SUCCESSFULLY, when THE RESPONSIBLE ones are SEPARATED, (in thought only), from THE NON RESPONSIBLE ones, and the words, 'if you were in their place (in their shoes)', are added onto that proposition.

Oh, and by the way, ALL of the 'suffering' felt by 'you', human beings, can be completely ERADICATED, the FAR majority of the 'pain and suffering' felt by 'you', human beings, is caused UNINTENTIONALLY by 'you', adult human beings.

And, if and when ANY of 'you' WANT to cause 'pain' and/or 'suffering' onto "another", then NO amount of UNDERSTANDING the consequences will prevent them from going on to CAUSE that 'pain' and/or 'suffering' ANYWAY.

But, what WILL STOP and PREVENT 'you', adult human beings, from CAUSING ANYMORE intentional 'pain and suffering' onto "others" is LEARNING and UNDERSTANDING WHY 'you' DO what you do and WHY 'you' WANT TO DO what you do.

Having said all that...when the shit hits the fan and all hell breaks loose ..

What is this 'metaphor' and 'figure of speech' referring to, EXACTLY?

as in if a war between many countries break out, or the weather takes an unexpected turn for the worse, the consequences of these events can be crippling to people who have been used to having their lives all so comfortable and easy.

As I have previously SAID ALL True 'suffering' is caused by 'you', adult human beings, like for example in CREATING wars and/or WANTING to kill or harm "each other". When 'you' kill "each other" then the children are the ones who end up in most pain and suffering. Also, ONLY 'children' suffer.

If ANY one expects the weather to NOT take an unexpected turn, then it could be said that those ones literally then deserve to so-call 'suffer'.

When ANY one wants to delve into this further, then just let me know.

In such events, people could turn rabid in their thirst to survive.

'you', human beings, could turn so-called "rabid" for absolutely ANY reason you MAKE UP and COME UP with. But using the EXCUSE "thirst to survive" is just 'that', AN EXCUSE for "turning rabid". See, thee Truth is there is NEVER ANY EXCUSE for DOING Wrong, and "turning rabid" is DOING Wrong, correct?

Just like you see in all those zombie movies.

Yes, let us LOOK AT OBVIOUSLY Truly MADE UP movies to TALK ABOUT REAL LIFE.

So to me, that's how nature works,

How, EXACTLY, to you, does 'nature' work?

it will ultimately turn on itself in a last bid to survive.

So, to you, 'nature' will end itself, "in a last bid to survive".

Can you NOT YET SEE the CONTRADICTION here?

There is no such reality as a utopian reality in nature, nature is a serial killer...

And, as we have gone through before ALSO it is 'nature', ALSO, which is the giver and provider for life.

it is only humans that have invented a peaceful world, in the attempt to escape from the actual reality that nature is a meat grinder, and so we only feel compassion for nature because we are nature.

And, it is ONLY human beings that have invented, and ARE creating, a hell world, NOT to escape from the ACTUAL Reality, but just because 'you' put your OWN 'greed' AND 'selfishness' BEFORE ALL ELSE.

Nature kills to survive another day, and to survive another day it has to kill.

And, it could be argued 'nature' provides new life, to "survive" another day, and to "survive" another day 'nature' has to live, or create MORE life.

Anyone who denies this obvious fact, is just living in lala land.

It could also be SAID and ARGUED ANY one who ONLY LOOKS AT 'one side' of 'things' denies thee OBVIOUS Fact, and is just living in their OWN little world.

So to me, I cannot see the point in living this repeat and rinse reality...over and over again.

Well 'you' NEVER EVER have to worry about that at all BECAUSE 'you' are NEVER coming back into this Life, EVER AGAIN, let alone over and over again.

But it seems we do, so then that's just the nature of it.

.

WHY would it SEEM that way, to you?

[Dontaskme]

...dream marriage is unavailable with earthly beings...

That's as tidy a summary of the situation as one could make, I'm sure.

But is that unexpected? What led us to expect it would, could or even should be?

But if we knew it already, whence the disappointment? Why would we feel disenchanted, or cheated, or even upset that human beings are not gods?

That's what I mean though, it's expected to fail, that's the knowledge that is expectation, where there is an expectation as to what is desired and undesired. If the expectation is to love and be equally loved in return.. then when that expectation is not reciprocated, then the one who had demanded the expectation feels the pain of not having that demand met. We feel a pain because we do not want the object of our desire to not meet our demand, in other words it's as though we want people to love us and when they cannot meet with that expectation is when we feel pain. And that is why I chose to live a solitary life, because I quickly learnt that others can not meet with our own expectations of what we desire of them. That's where the phrase ''hell is other people comes from'' ..but yes it would be amazing if two people could love and be loved in return, but so far in my life I have not experienced such a marriage.

I think maybe it's because, on some level, we know things ought to be better. And maybe not all of us can define that sense of "ought": but it's real and felt deeply. We cannot shake the sense that we have been "cheated" of something.

Yes I agree.

From a Christian perspective, we could say that it's a product of a fallen world. People are not what they ought to be, and don't do what they ought to do. But there might be hope for something better, nonetheless.

Yes, I also agree with this.

But from a purely secular perspective, we have to ask where we're getting this sense of being cheated. Evolution promised us nothing, in that regard -- it's not even capable of doing so. So there's no grounds for a complaint, and...and this is crucial...nobody to hear us or care if we complain, and nobody to owe us anything better than we get.

Yes, I agree

So it's clear you're feeling unhappy with the way the world is on this question. Anyone can see that.

Yes, I'm feeling unhappy with the idea that earthly beings are incapable of ever being truly inlove until death do them part..as the holy sacrament is imparted in the holy churches where the marriages take place. When people say ''I do'' to the death do us part ...It makes me unhappy to know that they are often lying when they say 'I do'...because even though they intend well, the lie always comes out somewhere in time within the marriage...that's why I think the whole idea of marriage for life is a sham. Now, on the other hand, if the ''I do'' wasn't a sham, and it was really true as God ordained in the taking of the VOW...then that would make those who do say ''I do'' live happily ever after with one another.

But I suppose you're going to have to interpret that feeling, and decide what it means. Does it mean that there's a God who meant for you to have better, to have the thing you feel you're lacking, but for the present, you've been ripped off for it by human betrayal -- but you still have a right to long for it, because you genuinely have been let down? (Christian version) Or does it mean you never had a right to expect any better in the first place, and should just get over it? (Secular version)

I have been let down by my expectation ..and is why I chose to go it alone. Just like God is alone. And that's the only marriage that worked for me, the one I have with my self. That's the bliss right there, there is no bliss to be found in another....because where there is other, there will always be expectation that may or may not be fulfilled, in other words, the idea of otherness is the lie we are all spoon fed from cradle to grave...if that makes sense.