RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:55 am
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:43 pm
Human nature does not pertain to some collective thing called, "mankind," or, "humanity," but to individual human beings.
So you're suggesting that human beings don't have a common nature of any kind? Is that right?
Nothing I said could possibly be construed to suggest such an absurd idea. There is human nature and every, "individual human being," has the same kind of nature.
Actually, what you said above seems to
necessitate the question. But your answer seems to contradict your earlier statement. So now I'm at a bit of a loss to know what you actually want to say: is it that "human nature" pertains only to "individuals," or that "every human being has the same kind of nature"?
You've said both, evidently.
An individual does not have human nature because they are a member of, "humanity."
I cannot imagine any other way they
could have it.
...nothing about that nature determines how any individual will use their ability to think and choose to live, especially not their being members of some collective.
I wasn't suggesting it did. As you know, I'm no Determinist, nor am I any kind of Collectivist. "Human nature," I think, is a concept that applies to broad inclinations and instincts all humans have in common, not something determinative of specific choices of individuals.
Maybe that's the difference you're looking to point out...I'm not sure.
...if all the disasters you foresee occur, (and some, like war, are inevitable), they will not be moral consequences, just the consequence of the stupidity and ignorance if the vast majority of individual human beings.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:55 am
If the only possible causes of evil are "stupidity and ignorance," and the only people who have a say are "the vast majority," you'll be right. But if it's not so much "majorities" that are making the decisions, and if individually, cruelty, malevolence, greed, power-hunger, hubris, and so on are also possible to human beings, then there can be many reasons why such things happen.
You do not think, "cruelty, malevolence, greed, power-hunger, and hubris," are stupid?
No. I think they're often deliberate, calculated, strategized, intentional, and cunning. The word "stupid" would hardly apply to that, because the word implies "in a stupor," and hence, unconscious: and these people are obviously very conscious, very purposeful, very calculating. They are reasoning evilly, not acting in a "stupor."
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:55 am
Wuhan didn't happen because the masses were ignorant. It happened because certain world leaders were malevolent and unscrupulous, and certain technologists were hubristic. The ignorance of the masses clearly only became relevant after the virus was already out, in terms, perhaps, of spreading it. But the decisions that produced it were not taken by the masses.
All the decisions were made by those the masses chose as their leaders and saviors.
No, that's not right.
Firstly, they didn't "choose" their leaders, in many cases. China did not "choose" the Communist Party. Russia never "chose" Stalin. And, in point of fact, the American public did not "choose" Biden, either -- unless you actually believe that statistically, Biden is
the most popular president in history ...more popular than Clinton and Obama, more than Reagan and Bush, and more even than Lincoln or Washington. I don't think there's anybody who believes that...not even Biden, assuming he still knows what "believe" means.
What happens is rather different: sometimes the masses are stupid and cause their own misery, sure. But sometimes, unscrupulous individuals subvert the will of the people and force them into situations of misery and exploitation. And sometimes, as in Socialism, those things work together: the people perhaps selecting Socialism initially, and the unscrupulous leaders taking advantage of the stupidity of the masses in doing that, but creating far more misery, poverty and exploitation than the masses themselves would have imagined.