Why Thinking Is Over-rated

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Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:42 pm Can you imagine believing that you can actually understand another person. Most people don't have the fainted Idea of who they are!
What do you think is a sufficient criterion for being able to claim that you understand something? Be it understanding another person or understanding yourself.

Ultimately saying that you understand is a claim about your state of mind. What might confirm/falsify your claim of understanding?
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:17 am
simplicity wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:42 pm Can you imagine believing that you can actually understand another person. Most people don't have the fainted Idea of who they are!
What do you think is a sufficient criterion for being able to claim that you understanding something? Be it understanding another person or understanding yourself.
I'll take it a step further and suggest that we are incapable of understanding anything...period. What we do "understand" are vague guesses subject to infinite miscalculations as our perceptions languish between a temporal misalignment [which contributes to our inability to access reality].

Even the best bullshitters among us [intelligentsia] only spout out the currently accepted non-sense.
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 am I'll take it a step further and suggest that we are incapable of understanding anything...period.
OK, but then you have no use for the word "understanding", or the phrase "trying to understand"; or "understanding myself".

Which is peculiar because you have been using those phrases. Are you suggesting that understanding is unnatainable in any degrree and if so - why pursue it?

Personally, I like Feynman's criterion: what I cannot create I do not understand. Which is on-par for somebody (like me) in the business of inventing mechanical minds.
simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 am What we do "understand" are vague guesses subject to infinite miscalculations as our perceptions languish between a temporal misalignment [which contributes to our inability to access reality].

Even the best bullshitters among us [intelligentsia] only spout out the currently accepted non-sense.
That's fine but... do you actually think the "currently accepted non-sense" improves over time in some qualitative sense or are you saying improvement is impossible - only change happens.

Don't you think our guessing improves over time?
Don't you think our miscalculations are less wrong over time?
Don't you think that our access to reality is less and less restricted over time?
Fja1
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Fja1 »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:15 amPersonally, I like Feynman's criterion: what I cannot create I do not understand. Which is on-par for somebody (like me) in the business of inventing mechanical minds.
Also Bergson: "To understand is to create."
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:15 am
simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 am I'll take it a step further and suggest that we are incapable of understanding anything...period.
OK, but then you have no use for the word "understanding", or the phrase "trying to understand"; or "understanding myself".

Which is peculiar because you have been using those phrases. Are you suggesting that understanding is unattainable in any degree and if so - why pursue it?
That's the million dollar question!

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:15 amPersonally, I like Feynman's criterion: what I cannot create I do not understand. Which is on-par for somebody (like me) in the business of inventing mechanical minds.

True understanding is an illusion. Everybody gets this on some level, but it's only the folks that apply this lesson learned who are able to move forward with much greater efficacy.
simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 am What we do "understand" are vague guesses subject to infinite miscalculations as our perceptions languish between a temporal misalignment [which contributes to our inability to access reality].

Even the best bullshitters among us [intelligentsia] only spout out the currently accepted non-sense.
That's fine but... do you actually think the "currently accepted non-sense" improves over time in some qualitative sense or are you saying improvement is impossible - only change happens.

Don't you think our guessing improves over time?
Don't you think our miscalculations are less wrong over time?
Don't you think that our access to reality is less and less restricted over time?
No, no, no, and no, although I guess you would have to define your terms. I kind of go with the idea that Absolute Simplicity is Absolute Truth, so the more complex thinking becomes, the further it moves from the Truth. You always know when somebody is piling on the bullshit [their explanations become more and more complex]. The Truth is eminently simple.
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:15 am Don't you think that our access to reality is less and less restricted over time?
There are many reasons we lack access to reality ["Reality" meaning, Absolute Truth, "reality," our personal truth]. Human intelligence, although it is what it is, is hardly up to the task making much sense out of that which is taking place. Simply consider the notion that we do not exist in the present. Perceptual time-lag is a big problem in this regard. As well, all things intellectual are constantly changing [because what creates these ideas are constantly changing]. So just factoring in the above, you have constantly changing ideas within a skewed temporal context [and, of course, time really doesn't exist anyway]. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's like math, ideas people made-up. It seems to work sometimes, but not when it really counts [at the extremes], and besides, since all things are unique, what exactly does "more than one" mean?

It's pretty easy to break-down what is commonly thought to be Truth and expose it for what it is...non-sense, but just the same, we need what limited help our intellect can supply to get us through our days. The secret is in understanding the limits of such and where to go from there.
Fja1
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Fja1 »

simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:01 pmIt's like math, ideas people made-up. It seems to work sometimes, but not when it really counts [at the extremes], and besides, since all things are unique, what exactly does "more than one" mean?
Two things are only unique insofar they can be verified as having different consequences. (pragmatism)
surreptitious57
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by surreptitious57 »

Skepdick wrote:
Dont you think our guessing improves over time ? Scientifically yes / psychologically no
Dont you think our miscalculations are less wrong over time ? Scientifically yes / psychologically no
Dont you think that our access to reality is less and less restricted over time ? Scientifically yes / psychologically no
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:36 pm No, no, no, and no, although I guess you would have to define your terms. I kind of go with the idea that Absolute Simplicity is Absolute Truth, so the more complex thinking becomes, the further it moves from the Truth. You always know when somebody is piling on the bullshit [their explanations become more and more complex]. The Truth is eminently simple.
I am a complexity theorist. I don't actually believe that. I believe precisely the opposite.

The world is very very complex. Too complex for our monkey-brains. But we have a bunch of tools to help us manage this complexity.

Like, there's really no simple explanation on how the mRNA vaccine works. Try explain it to somebody who has zero background in biology.

Feynman was wrong about things being simply explainable. Some ideas require great amounts of insight.
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:29 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:36 pm No, no, no, and no, although I guess you would have to define your terms. I kind of go with the idea that Absolute Simplicity is Absolute Truth, so the more complex thinking becomes, the further it moves from the Truth. You always know when somebody is piling on the bullshit [their explanations become more and more complex]. The Truth is eminently simple.
I am a complexity theorist. I don't actually believe that. I believe precisely the opposite.
How fun!
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:29 pmThe world is very very complex. Too complex for our monkey-brains. But we have a bunch of tools to help us manage this complexity.

Like, there's really no simple explanation on how the mRNA vaccine works. Try explain it to somebody who has zero background in biology.

Feynman was wrong about things being simply explainable. Some ideas require great amounts of insight.
The intellectual world is very complex, NOT the real world. And it's not that its too complex to understand, it's just too much information to process. The good news is that there is another kind of understanding that is not so dependent on our limited intellect...that which exists before our discrimination kicks-in.
surreptitious57
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by surreptitious57 »

The intellectual world and the real world are not mutually independent of each other because one is the map and the other is the terrain
Sometimes it is too complex to understand and sometimes it is too much information and sometimes both and sometimes neither of these
And while it can be experienced without it being understood it is not discrimination whenever it is being understood in any objective sense
surreptitious57
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by surreptitious57 »

simplicity wrote:
You can only understand somebodys actions never their motivations
There are an infinite number of reasons why people do the simplest of things therefore it is beyond human comprehension
Motivations can be understood through the interpretation of emotion by using language
Emotion and language are universal within human society which makes such understanding possible
surreptitious57
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by surreptitious57 »

simplicity wrote:
The idea is that mans attempt to improve upon Reality [ via conceptual thought ] continues to be an abject failure
Conceptual thinking takes what is and transforms it into what is thought to be [ which almost always seems to be some kind of bizarre dystopian reality ]
Conceptual thinking is what has got us where we are today
Were we never to think then we would never have made any progress at all
What is the point in having a pre frontal cortex if you cannot actually use it ?
surreptitious57
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by surreptitious57 »


Conceptual thinking lead to the invention of the machine that you are reading these words on
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:34 am The intellectual world is very complex, NOT the real world.
The real world is even more complex than the intellectual world. That is why we are not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. That is why we have that ideal - we want to be!

The intellectual world's primary goal is to manage complexity, because complexity is precisely what's going to kill us in the long run.

The lack of understanding of the long-term consequences of our individual and collective choices.
simplicity wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:34 am And it's not that its too complex to understand, it's just too much information to process.
Yes! That is a direct implication of the world's complexity! There is not enough computational resources to examine all the available information.

That is why we resort to heuristics like Mathematics. We equate things that are not really equal. We abstract away information that we think is not relevant so that we can reason about stuff in our heads.
simplicity wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:34 am The good news is that there is another kind of understanding that is not so dependent on our limited intellect...that which exists before our discrimination kicks-in.
Even though you recently stated that understanding is not possible? Abstraction is NOT possible without discrimination! You have to choose what to ignore; and you have to choose what to amplify! That is discriminatory by definition.

I guess I should just go ahead and ask: do you think you understand understanding?
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