Why Thinking Is Over-rated

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simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:19 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:05 pm If you use the BB as the beginning, in theory you can still see it at the leading edge of the expanding Universe, no? Everything that took place after the BB will be right behind it. It's maybe the best example of how people attempt to make Reality fit into our simple appreciation of, "what it is."

Imagine the burden of believing that you can actually [really] figure something out!
Yes... I understand your conception.

I also pointed out that this is equivalent to O(1) (constant) time-complexity in complexity theory. The Universe can compute all of its own, eternal consequences instentaneously.

This vantage point from which all time is equidistant is what Christians call God's omnipresence.
Eventually, every discussion ends up at the same wall. To get beyond it, one must embrace the non-intellectual [which, of course, goes by all kinds of different names] but it's just another way of saying that Reality is simply not accessible to our limited intellect.

And thank God for small favors. Imagine what man might do if he really knew what was going on?!
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:39 pm Eventually, every discussion ends up at the same wall. To get beyond it, one must embrace the non-intellectual [which, of course, goes by all kinds of different names] but it's just another way of saying that Reality is simply not accessible to our limited intellect.

And thank God for small favors. Imagine what man might do if he really knew what was going on?!
We are not playing the same game. At all.

Philosophy cares about "What is reality?".

I just care about "What should we DO with; and about reality?". Well. There's a hot cup of tea on my desk - I am going to drink it.
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:04 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:39 pm Eventually, every discussion ends up at the same wall. To get beyond it, one must embrace the non-intellectual [which, of course, goes by all kinds of different names] but it's just another way of saying that Reality is simply not accessible to our limited intellect.

And thank God for small favors. Imagine what man might do if he really knew what was going on?!
We are not playing the same game. At all.

Philosophy cares about "What is reality?".

I just care about "What should we DO with; and about reality?". Well. There's a hot cup of tea on my desk - I am going to drink it.
You understand.
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:54 pm You understand.
Well, yeah! But that is precisely the grammatical error which sends one chasing their own Philosophical tail.

It's not a question: What is reality?
It's a statement/assignment: What IS reality.

The unknown, the "What" IS that which we call "reality".

Any mind which interprets it as a question and not a statement starts spewing its own thoughts about reality.
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:22 amAny mind which interprets it as a question and not a statement starts spewing its own thoughts about reality.
And in the end IT all reverts to nothingness.

Other than pure distraction, getting involved in these kinds of discussions gives one pause...
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:52 pm And in the end IT all reverts to nothingness.
Not for a veeeeeeeery long time! We will be gone long before the nothingness comes. So why worry about it?
simplicity wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:52 pm Other than pure distraction, getting involved in these kinds of discussions gives one pause...
Naaah. These kind of discussions remove self-doubt. They cure the existential angst. They quell the hate.

I don't self-identify as a Christian. I don't self-identify as anything other than myself, really, but this verse from the Bible resonates with me.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God --John 1:1
Which (as far as I can tell) means exactly the same thing as Hinduism's "Atman is Brahman".
And I don't think that's very far from the teachings of Zen Buddhism either.

So does all that mean that the Perennialists were right ? Or is that the Existentialists?

Meh! So many different words for the same damn thing!
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:38 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:52 pm And in the end IT all reverts to nothingness.
Not for a veeeeeeeery long time! We will be gone long before the nothingness comes. So why worry about it?
You misunderstand. IT, representing all things, is nothingness once our intellect disengages. IT only exists as an intellectual construct. ITS actual Reality is beyond our comprehension.
simplicity wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:52 pm Other than pure distraction, getting involved in these kinds of discussions gives one pause...
Naaah. These kind of discussions remove self-doubt. They cure the existential angst. They quell the hate.[/quote]

Any foray into the intellectual realm only creates more confusion [or better put...delusion].
Skepdick wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:38 pmI don't self-identify as a Christian. I don't self-identify as anything other than myself, really, but this verse from the Bible resonates with me.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God --John 1:1
Which (as far as I can tell) means exactly the same thing as Hinduism's "Atman is Brahman".
And I don't think that's very far from the teachings of Zen Buddhism either.

So does all that mean that the Perennialists were right ? Or is that the Existentialists?

Meh! So many different words for the same damn thing!
Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of money and power involved in making believe that we are all warring tribes instead of brother and sisters all pretty much looking for the same things in life.

Divide and conquer.
Fja1
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Fja1 »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:22 am
Fja1 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:52 pmI don't know if at any point you might have conceded to an aporia around the debate whether reality/nature is simple or complex - a more accessible argument that reality/nature is indeed simple was something left to be desired. Consider the argument of the universality of dialectic, ie. is dialectic universal and exists in nature (dogmatic dialectics, Hegel and Schelling), or is dialectic something that uniquely exists in the teleological subject and thus contradicton in reality/nature is merely an illusion (critical dialectics, Sartre)?
Reality is Absolute Simplicity and The Intellectual is infinitely complex. All things knowable [intellectual] are brought to life by an infinite number of things preceding. OTOH, Reality just IS. No explanation necessary...only discrete moments existing outside of time.
As simplicity, do you think of reality as static?
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Fja1 wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:19 am
simplicity wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:22 am
Fja1 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:52 pmI don't know if at any point you might have conceded to an aporia around the debate whether reality/nature is simple or complex - a more accessible argument that reality/nature is indeed simple was something left to be desired. Consider the argument of the universality of dialectic, ie. is dialectic universal and exists in nature (dogmatic dialectics, Hegel and Schelling), or is dialectic something that uniquely exists in the teleological subject and thus contradicton in reality/nature is merely an illusion (critical dialectics, Sartre)?
Reality is Absolute Simplicity and The Intellectual is infinitely complex. All things knowable [intellectual] are brought to life by an infinite number of things preceding. OTOH, Reality just IS. No explanation necessary...only discrete moments existing outside of time.
As simplicity, do you think of reality as static?
Are you speaking of actual Reality or one's personal reality?
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:22 pm Are you speaking of actual Reality or one's personal reality?
Is either of those static?
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:27 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:22 pm Are you speaking of actual Reality or one's personal reality?
Is either of those static?
Personal reality is anything but static, it is ALWAYS changing.

Actual Reality can not be characterized intellectually.
Skepdick
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Skepdick »

simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:37 pm Personal reality is anything but static, it is ALWAYS changing.

Actual Reality can not be characterized intellectually.
Temperature is changing. Weather is changing. Position of Earth in relation to other planets is changing.

I think there's more to be said than you let on.
Fja1
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by Fja1 »

simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:22 pm
Fja1 wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:19 am
simplicity wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:22 am
Reality is Absolute Simplicity and The Intellectual is infinitely complex. All things knowable [intellectual] are brought to life by an infinite number of things preceding. OTOH, Reality just IS. No explanation necessary...only discrete moments existing outside of time.
As simplicity, do you think of reality as static?
Are you speaking of actual Reality or one's personal reality?
Depends, what are you speaking in the part I quoted. I'm not really trying to introduce a new concept, I'm just preoccupied with the implications of your statement "Reality just IS", as opposed to intellectual or subjective which in the Hegelian sense is not "being", but "becoming". That which is real has no beginning and no end. Is reality therefore essence? Temperature changes and weather changes are merely accidents, not essence. Maybe to account for change, one might say reality is nothing but movement which is illustrated by Zeno's paradoxes. (One cannot stand in the same river twice, or according to Aristotle's Cratylus, even once. Static impermanence, get it?) Change is something which happens to something, some substance, but isn't that "something" a concept? (Epicurean substance neither has a beginning nor end.)
simplicity
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Re: Why Thinking Is Over-rated

Post by simplicity »

Fja1 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:22 pm
Fja1 wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:19 am

As simplicity, do you think of reality as static?
Are you speaking of actual Reality or one's personal reality?
Depends, what are you speaking in the part I quoted. I'm not really trying to introduce a new concept, I'm just preoccupied with the implications of your statement "Reality just IS", as opposed to intellectual or subjective which in the Hegelian sense is not "being", but "becoming". That which is real has no beginning and no end. Is reality therefore essence? Temperature changes and weather changes are merely accidents, not essence. Maybe to account for change, one might say reality is nothing but movement which is illustrated by Zeno's paradoxes. (One cannot stand in the same river twice, or according to Aristotle's Cratylus, even once. Static impermanence, get it?) Change is something which happens to something, some substance, but isn't that "something" a concept? (Epicurean substance neither has a beginning nor end.)
Any attempt to intellectualize the non-intellectual will fall short. The best Zen teachers are those who can keep it as simple as possible so as to minimally divert from the Truth. Just the same, they will all tell you that although they can do a better job pointing you towards the Truth, words are NOT the way.

"Reality just is," doesn't mean anything. How could it? Reality is not accessible by the human intellect. The best we can do is perceive with the least amount of filters [which is a hell of a lot better than our lame intellectual analysis that only creates all kinds of difficulties].
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