What is philosophy?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 pm You OBVIOUSLY do NOT YET KNOW what 'it' is EXACTLY that creates that "mental noise", within 'you', which is what is STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you' from being connected and flowing.
How do you know this?
From the VERY WORDS that 'you' use.

Now, what is 'it', EXACTLY, that creates that 'mental noise', within 'you', which is what is STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you' from being connected and flowing?
Lacewing wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 pm Just learn what is making that mental noise, within you, then you can PREVENT that noise from reoccurring again.
Are you assuming I don't know?
NO. I KNOW.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 pm if and when 'you' are attuned properly, then there are NO barriers that need to be broken through, like in your current situation.
What "current situation"?
The current situation in which 'you' find "yourself" in with all of that 'mental noise', which is what is STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you' from being connected and flowing.
Lacewing wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:48 pm You misunderstand... and appear to be imagining something.
REALLY?

What is 'it', EXACTLY, which 'you' CLAIM here I "misunderstand"?

AND, what is this 'something', EXACTLY, which I appear to 'you' to be "imagining"?

Your ability, or inability, to PROVIDE CLEAR ANSWERS here, will SHOW whether I KNOW 'you' better than 'you' do, or not.

Your VERY WORDS, "You misunderstand... and appear to be imagining something", WITHOUT ANY FURTHER CLARIFICATION/S, SHOWS and PROVES just how much 'mental noise' is within 'you', and which 'you' STILL DO NOT YET KNOW what 'it' is that is causing so much 'noise'.

Also, this is WHY 'you' are SO DISCONNECTED, and SO STUCK where 'you' are now.
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:50 pm Philosophy is (at least supposed to be) the love of (arguably also the pursuit of) wisdom. I mean, that's about as close to the essence of it as an answer can get. Anything more embellishing than that tends to get a little murky and debatable.
Considering where from and what the word 'philosophy' came from, this definition is about as close a definition from what the word 'philosophy' once or originally meant.

'phil-o-sophy' - love-of-wisdom. Or, as pointed out, more correctly the love of the pursuit of wisdom. This love of pursuit of becoming wiser can only come from continually learning more, and/or anew. And, continually being able to learn more or anew can only come from being Truly OPEN, to learning more or anew.

When one is ASSUMING or BELIEVING they already know what is true or false, then they are NOT at all OPEN to learning ANY thing more or anew opposing or contrary to their ASSUMPTION or BELIEF.

To be a natural philosopher is to just be Truly OPEN and Truly CURIOUS, EXACTLY LIKE 'you', ALL, were when you were born.

The younger a human being is the MORE of a natural philosopher they are. And, the older a human being is the LESS of a natural philosopher they can be. Furthermore, the younger a human being is the MORE intelligent they just naturally are. And, unfortunately, the older a human being becomes the LESS intelligent they can become.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Lacewing »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 am...
You do not know what people see and think based on your bizarre interpretations of communication. You are usually way off base, and if someone points that out to you, you make excuses and even more projections. You are being too ridiculous to engage with.
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:04 am
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 am...
You do not know what people see and think based on your bizarre interpretations of communication.
AND HERE is a PRIME EXAMPLE of one who makes CLAIMS, but, when challenged, is NEVER able to back up nor support those CLAIMS. Which, I will once again, PROVE is True.

You CLAIM that I do NOT KNOW what people see and think, based on my "bizarre interpretations of communication". Now, what, to you, is my "bizarre interpretation of communication".

And, how do you KNOW that I DO NOT KNOW what people see and think? (Are 'you' NOT YET AWARE that the words that 'you', people, use CLEARLY SHOWS and REVEALS what 'you', people see and think?)
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:04 am You are usually way off base,
Also, just using words like, "bizarre interpretation of communication", does NOT mean there is an ACTUAL "bizarre interpretation of communication". There, however, may be an EXTREME "bizarre interpretation of communication", TO YOU, but until you provide ANY actual example, and explanation, then what you are CLAIMING here is just ALL in that head ONLY.

Now, CLAIMING that I am "usually way off base", AGAIN, without providing ANY examples NOR explanations, is nothing more than just YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION, which is, again, sitting with in that head ONLY.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:04 am and if someone points that out to you, you make excuses and even more projections.
Just because 'you', supposedly, "point out things", does NOT mean that what you "point out" is even remotely close to being the truth. AND, especially considering the FACT that what you CLAIM is "pointing out" is just saying, ridiculous, and absurd things like; "you are usually way off base", "you do not know what people see or think based on your bizarre interpretation of communication", and/or "you make excuses and even more projections" WITHOUT EVER adding ANY thing more is NOT "pointing 'that' out to me".

That is just you expressing your OWN ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, without ANY thing being provided to back up and support those ASSUMPTIONS nor BELIEFS.

For example, what you CLAIM is "my bizarre interpretation of communication" could IN FACT just be YOUR OWN 'bizarre interpretation'. But, because you do NOT provide ANY ACTUAL 'thing' to LOOK AT and DISCUSS 'we' will NEVER KNOW what thee ACTUAL Truth IS here.

If, and when, 'you' EVER get up to the COURAGE to PROVIDE ACTUAL PROOF for your CLAIMS, then 'we' can LOOK AT just how Correct or Incorrect 'you' REALLY ARE.
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:04 am You are being too ridiculous to engage with.
LOL

And 'you' just MAKE CLAIMS but NEVER provide ANY PROOF for those CLAIMS, so there is, literally, NOTHING to 'engage with'.

For example, I could just as easily say, and claim:

"You do not know what you are talking about based on your bizarre interpretations of communication." And, then do what you do, and just expect 'you', the "other", to just accept and agree with this being true.

I could then also just as easily say, and claim:

"You are usually way off base, and if someone points that out to you, you make excuses and even more projections." And, again, then do what you do, and just expect 'you', the "other", to just accept and agree with this being true.

I could then just as easily say, and claim:

"You are being too ridiculous to engage with." And, then again, do what you do, and just expect 'you', the "other", to just accept and agree with this being true.

BUT, the difference, however, between if and when 'you' say and claim these things and if and when I were to say and claim these things is that I can ACTUALLY back up and support those claims, and therefore could ACTUALLY PROVE what I have said and claimed, about 'you'. AND, if 'you' would like to CHALLENGE me on this FACT, then PLEASE go right on ahead.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12247
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Angelo Cannata wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:20 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:06 am
Angelo Cannata wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:53 am My idea is that doing philosophy, exploring ideas, reasoning, exploring philosophers, can be itself something able to be a whole life, a spiritual life, a nourishment, a way to connect to others, to things, to life. An interesting reference to this perspective is the research of Pierre Hadot on philosophy that for Greek philosophers was not just reasoning, thinking, but a spiritual exercise.
To Piere Hadot, philosophy is a Way of Life via theory and practical.
But what is that 'way'?

Within the diversity of life since the first living cells emerged, what is most enduring and constant are changes for the better, i.e. there is an essence of 'continuous improvement' for the well-being of the entities and in a limited way, the species.

What is sustaining the effectively of such changes for the better in the future is, Philosophy as a tool or instrument in its various forms [knowledge, wisdom, critical thinking, actions, the 'good,' etc.] to optimize [net pros over cons] the well being of the entities.
I think that an idea and experience of "way of life" can be found precisely in the research about what "the better", what "well being" is, what criterions are better to find it. This research opens, obviously, a lot of debate, but now we can realize that this debate itself, this research itself, can be considered a way for the better and for well being. This perspective suggests that research and debate can be appreciated as experiences of philosophical spirituality, rather than just instruments aimed at finding some truth, with the consequence that they have no value until some truth is not found. Instead, they can be considered valuable experiences, because the main purpose can be not the objective to reach, but the experience of looking for it. This should be considered not just a sterile debating, that is, debating to debate, but debating because we have discovered the debating itself is able to build a valuable spiritual philosophical and practical experience between humans.
I believe what is most critical is to grasp the concept of continuous improvement as one critical anchor of Philosophy, and to ensure this inherent impulse is activated in ALL [or at least the majority] humans, then the next critical point is research on what is 'better' and 'well-being' and their optimalities.

Unfortunately most who delve into philosophy do not even get the above bolded terms but rather confined philosophy as "love of wisdom," academic or armchair philosophy, and the likes.

Truth is one of the resources for Philosophy to do its job among the more critical resources I mentioned above, [knowledge, wisdom, MORALITY, critical thinking, actions, the 'good,' etc.].

I believe the term 'spirituality' is too loose and this term can easily be abused in the present circumstances.
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:18 am
Angelo Cannata wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:20 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:06 am
To Piere Hadot, philosophy is a Way of Life via theory and practical.
But what is that 'way'?

Within the diversity of life since the first living cells emerged, what is most enduring and constant are changes for the better, i.e. there is an essence of 'continuous improvement' for the well-being of the entities and in a limited way, the species.

What is sustaining the effectively of such changes for the better in the future is, Philosophy as a tool or instrument in its various forms [knowledge, wisdom, critical thinking, actions, the 'good,' etc.] to optimize [net pros over cons] the well being of the entities.
I think that an idea and experience of "way of life" can be found precisely in the research about what "the better", what "well being" is, what criterions are better to find it. This research opens, obviously, a lot of debate, but now we can realize that this debate itself, this research itself, can be considered a way for the better and for well being. This perspective suggests that research and debate can be appreciated as experiences of philosophical spirituality, rather than just instruments aimed at finding some truth, with the consequence that they have no value until some truth is not found. Instead, they can be considered valuable experiences, because the main purpose can be not the objective to reach, but the experience of looking for it. This should be considered not just a sterile debating, that is, debating to debate, but debating because we have discovered the debating itself is able to build a valuable spiritual philosophical and practical experience between humans.
I believe what is most critical is to grasp the concept of continuous improvement as one critical anchor of Philosophy, and to ensure this inherent impulse is activated in ALL [or at least the majority] humans, then the next critical point is research on what is 'better' and 'well-being' and their optimalities.

Unfortunately most who delve into philosophy do not even get the above bolded terms but rather confined philosophy as "love of wisdom," academic or armchair philosophy, and the likes.
LOL IF one has the True 'love of wisdom', and Truly Wants to change, for the 'better', then they NATURALLY discover, or learn, and understand NOT just what is 'better' in Life but what IS ACTUALLY BEST, True, and Right in Life.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:18 am Truth is one of the resources for Philosophy to do its job among the more critical resources I mentioned above, [knowledge, wisdom, MORALITY, critical thinking, actions, the 'good,' etc.].

I believe the term 'spirituality' is too loose and this term can easily be abused in the present circumstances.
You are FREE to BELIEVE whatever you like. But just because you BELIEVE some thing, then this does NOT make that 'thing' better nor even true or right.
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:08 pmAs long as a STORY coheres to currently held BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, these people WILL THEN BELIEVE 'that' story to be true, no matter how False, Wrong, or Incorrect that story REALLY is.
What you are describing is called 'confirmation bias'; well done for recognising it, but your delusion that future generations will credit you with its discovery is pitiful. Here, get yourself up to speed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
It has been explained to you that most people who have some training in science and/or philosophy understand that all beliefs are provisional - they are subject to revision in the light of new evidence. I for instance currently believe that some version of an expanding universe is the best explanation for the data. If you can give me a better explanation, I will provisionally believe that.
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:07 pm
Age wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:08 pmAs long as a STORY coheres to currently held BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, these people WILL THEN BELIEVE 'that' story to be true, no matter how False, Wrong, or Incorrect that story REALLY is.
What you are describing is called 'confirmation bias'; well done for recognising it, but your delusion that future generations will credit you with its discovery is pitiful.
LOL You are MORE delusional than I first recognized.

Where have I EVER even suggested such a thing, let alone said it?

'you' are SO STUCK in your BELIEFS 'you' are now IMAGINING things that are OBVIOUSLY ABSOLUTELY False AND Incorrect.
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:07 pm Here, get yourself up to speed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
It has been explained to you that most people who have some training in science and/or philosophy understand that all beliefs are provisional - they are subject to revision in the light of new evidence.
BUT 'people', like 'you', can ONLY "see" what 'you' ALREADY BELIEVE is true.

See, people like you, BELIEVED that the Universe began, and so ANY thing that aligns with this BELIEF is then accepted as being, so called, "new evidence". BUT, if you EVER want to Truly LOOK AT this, then I can SHOW 'you' and PROVE to "others" that the, so called, "new evidence" is NOT 'evidence' AT ALL, for what you BELIEVE it is. 'you', and "others", just INTERPRET that "evidence" as being "new evidence" for what you say it is, BECAUSE of your CURRENTLY HELD BELIEF/S.
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:07 pm I for instance currently believe that some version of an expanding universe is the best explanation for the data.
LOL

Okay. If that is what 'you' BELIEVE, then that is what it is, to 'you'.

By the way, that, so called, "best explanation" could NOT even be AN ACTUAL 'explanation'. This is BECAUSE what you CLAIM is NOT even a possibility, let alone the ACTUALITY of things.

If we just START with the 'data' ALONE, then what that data ACTUALLY leads to will NOT EVER end up being what you call "the best explanation" AT ALL.

Just let me know if you want to START with the ACTUAL 'data', then we can and will proceed.
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:07 pm If you can give me a better explanation, I will provisionally believe that.
AND, I have ALREADY informed you that I do NOT want you to believe what I give you.

As I keep saying, I am waiting for those who are Truly OPEN and Truly CURIOUS to learn how they can discover and/or learn what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, all by "them self", from thee ACTUAL 'data' that is ALREADY in existence.

If you agree with and accept that the 'data' about red-shifted objects receding away from us and blue-shifted objects moving towards us, and you are Honest, then I will attempt to override your BELIEFS, and SHOW you what you could find and SEE for "yourself". But without you being Truly Honest, then I will not even attempt to SHOW you what I can CLEARLY SEE and KNOW is ACTUALLY irrefutably True, Right, Accurate, and Correct.
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:32 pmJust let me know if you want to START with the ACTUAL 'data', then we can and will proceed.
No time like the present. So, what is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:36 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:32 pmJust let me know if you want to START with the ACTUAL 'data', then we can and will proceed.
No time like the present. So, what is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
Well that will all depend on what 'you' and 'I' agree with and accept.

Do 'you' agree with and accept that red-shifted objects are moving away from us is actual data?
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:36 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:32 pmJust let me know if you want to START with the ACTUAL 'data', then we can and will proceed.
No time like the present. So, what is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
Well that will all depend on what 'you' and 'I' agree with and accept.

Do 'you' agree with and accept that red-shifted objects are moving away from us is actual data?
No. The red-shift is the data; any explanation for that data, such as 'The objects are moving away from us' is an hypothesis. So again: what in your view is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:31 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:36 pm No time like the present. So, what is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
Well that will all depend on what 'you' and 'I' agree with and accept.

Do 'you' agree with and accept that red-shifted objects are moving away from us is actual data?
No. The red-shift is the data; any explanation for that data, such as 'The objects are moving away from us' is an hypothesis. So again: what in your view is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
THE RED-SHIFT.

Do you agree with and accept the, ACTUAL, data is the red-shift?

If yes, then great. We can then move on.

But if no, then what do you agree with and accept is the, ACTUAL, data?
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:41 pm
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:31 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm

Well that will all depend on what 'you' and 'I' agree with and accept.

Do 'you' agree with and accept that red-shifted objects are moving away from us is actual data?
No. The red-shift is the data; any explanation for that data, such as 'The objects are moving away from us' is an hypothesis. So again: what in your view is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
THE RED-SHIFT.

Do you agree with and accept the, ACTUAL, data is the red-shift?
You might have missed it, but see above. So we agree about that. What is the next step?
Age
Posts: 20043
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:47 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:41 pm
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:31 pm No. The red-shift is the data; any explanation for that data, such as 'The objects are moving away from us' is an hypothesis. So again: what in your view is "the ACTUAL 'data'"?
THE RED-SHIFT.

Do you agree with and accept the, ACTUAL, data is the red-shift?
You might have missed it, but see above.
I SAW 'that'.

I just wanted to MAKE SURE, with 'you'.
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:47 pm So we agree about that.
THANK YOU for your CLARIFICATION.

I, after all, do NOT want to EVER be ACCUSED of MISREPRESENTING you.

Now, that you have, FINALLY, CLARIFIED that we agree that the red-shift is the, ACTUAL, data, we can proceed.
uwot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:47 pm What is the next step?
The next step IS, you have ALREADY even admitted that the CLAIM that, "The objects are moving away from us", is just ONLY an 'hypothesis' anyway, and therefore is NOT even KNOWN to be true and correct AT ALL.

Therefore, what this means is, that all there is the data, of red-shift and blue-shift to go on, and ANY thing else is just an INTERPRETATION, which is what I have be EXPLAINING, but which was NOT BEING HEARD.

Now, the reason WHY 'yours' and "others" INTERPRETATION led to red-shift infers 'objects are moving away from us', which then means 'the Universe is expanding' is BECAUSE 'you' and "others" had an underlying BELIEF that the Universe BEGAN.

And, what is OBVIOUS is that 'you' and "others", subconsciously INTERPRET that red-shift infers/means "objects are moving away", which also infers/means "the Universe is expanding" is because this VERY NEATLY fits in perfectly and logically with your ALREADY HELD BELIEF.

'you' and "others" are MAKING UP and TELLING a STORY, which fits in with your ALREADY gained 'internal dialogue'/BELIEF. The data is LOOKED AT and SEEN, then 'you' and "others" start with a few "premises"; "red-shift means objects are moving away from us", stitch them together with a bit of logic; if objects are moving away from us, then this is "new evidence" that the Universe MUST BE getting bigger", you then see if the results suit you, and, if they do, then this means the Universe is getting bigger. And, if the Universe is getting bigger, then It MUST of been smaller, to the tiniest point, which fits in with, suits, and is perfectly coherent with your previously held view or belief that the Universe began.

Therefore, 'we' can now SPREAD the "news" that there is "new evidence" that the Universe is expanding and did begin.

Unfortunately though, for 'you' and for "them" there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that thee ACTUAL Universe is expanding NOR even began.

That some of 'you', human beings, in the days when this was written, ACTUALLY ASSUMED and/or BELIEVED that the Universe began and/or is expanding is just like how previous to 'you', human beings, human beings used to ASSUME and/or BELIEVE that the earth was in the center of the entire Universe, and previous to those human beings there were human beings who used to ASSUME and/or BELIEVE that the earth was flat.

So, the next step is do you agree with and accept that although there is, ACTUAL, data there is NO, ACTUAL, "new evidence" for ANY thing, including what is CLAIMED to be an expanding and/or beginning Universe?
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:42 pmThe next step IS, you have ALREADY even admitted that the CLAIM that, "The objects are moving away from us", is just ONLY an 'hypothesis' anyway, and therefore is NOT even KNOWN to be true and correct AT ALL.

Therefore, what this means is, that all there is the data, of red-shift and blue-shift to go on, and ANY thing else is just an INTERPRETATION, which is what I have be EXPLAINING, but which was NOT BEING HEARD.
As I keep saying, this is not news to any competent scientist or philosopher. What you are not hearing is that your ideas are new. That's because they are not.
Age wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:42 pmNow, the reason WHY 'yours' and "others" INTERPRETATION led to red-shift infers 'objects are moving away from us', which then means 'the Universe is expanding' is BECAUSE 'you' and "others" had an underlying BELIEF that the Universe BEGAN.
Where do you suppose "an underlying BELIEF that the Universe BEGAN" came from?
Post Reply