Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:59 am 1. Both imaginary and real share the same nature in the fact both exist. The actual exists. The imaginary exists.
So for you, "cancer exists" and "unicorns exist" are true in exactly the same sense? :shock:
3. Determinism is contradictory as one cannot have the illusion of free will without necessitating a choice between truths necessary for the illusion to occur.
Determinism is false. Yes.

But an "illusion" is, for the Determinist, no more than a very odd but causally-inert thing. There is no actual "choice," they think.
4. If equivocating the nature of the word "exists" or "existence" is the problem then no common definition can be observed
False: you and I can decide how we want to define it.

So I ask you again: do you want to use it to refer to real things, or only imaginary ones? Answer the question, and the problem's over.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:59 am 1. Both imaginary and real share the same nature in the fact both exist. The actual exists. The imaginary exists.
So for you, "cancer exists" and "unicorns exist" are true in exactly the same sense? :shock:
3. Determinism is contradictory as one cannot have the illusion of free will without necessitating a choice between truths necessary for the illusion to occur.
Determinism is false. Yes.

But an "illusion" is, for the Determinist, no more than a very odd but causally-inert thing. There is no actual "choice," they think.
4. If equivocating the nature of the word "exists" or "existence" is the problem then no common definition can be observed
False: you and I can decide how we want to define it.

So I ask you again: do you want to use it to refer to real things, or only imaginary ones? Answer the question, and the problem's over.
1. They both exist through contexts, while the context may differ the fact of existence stays the same. Cancer may exist empirically while the unicorn may exist in the imagination.

2. Determinism exists as a part of the truth not the whole truth.

3. Real things exist as real, imaginary exist as imaginary. Both contexts share the same common ground of existing. Existence is both real and imaginary.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 am So I ask you again: do you want to use it to refer to real things, or only imaginary ones? Answer the question, and the problem's over.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:33 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 am So I ask you again: do you want to use it to refer to real things, or only imaginary ones? Answer the question, and the problem's over.
Existence occurs both in real phenomena and imaginary: real existence as real, imaginary existence as imaginery.

Existence is both real and imaginary, it is not an either/or question.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:52 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:33 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:23 am So I ask you again: do you want to use it to refer to real things, or only imaginary ones? Answer the question, and the problem's over.
Existence is both real and imaginary, it is not an either/or question.
I see how you want to play.

Well, have fun. I'm out.
Age
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.
WHY?

Why can change NOT HAPPEN by just free will alone?

What you said here infers that ALL decisions are predetermined anyway, which opposes and is contrary to the idea of free will. Or if you mean something else, then what do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.
What does the 'it' word refer to here?

And, saying, "determinism requires free will" implies that free will ALWAYS existed alongside determinism or prior to determinism. Whereas is it NOT possible that free will came to exist through the evolutionary process later along the evolutionary line, or after?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 3. Free will and determinism coexist.
Well this is just BLATANTLY OBVIOUS anyway, to 'me'.

But maybe if you explained what 'determinism' and 'free will' ACTUALLY IS, to 'you', then that might help in understanding how you reached this conclusion here. From your 1. and 2. wording this certainly did NOT help in arriving, logically nor reasonably, at this 3. conclusion, well not from my perspective anyway.
1. An act of free will requires further actions to occur from that choice thus necessitating determinism coming from free will.
EVERY 'action' required a previous action.

To me, however, an act of 'free will' does NOT "require" ANY thing. However, from EVERY act of 'free will' a further action, naturally, occurs, anyway.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 2. "It" references the totality of being as the conversation and concept of free will emerges within the fabric of being.
Your words here, AGAIN, are NOT helping 'me', at all, understand 'you' better. For example, from the very first word of your sentence I have ABSOLUTELY NO idea NOR clue as to what you are referring to NOT meaning.

Was just using thee ACTUAL word that the word "it" here was referring instead of using the 'it' word REALLY to hard to do?

Or, did you NOT use 'that word' for some other reason?

If yes, then what was that reason, EXACTLY?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 3. If free will came through evolution a contradiction entails given both free will and evolution are agents of change thus necessitating "change" as a phenomenon being divided. In the act of free will a change occurs in a form with this new form being a variation of the prior form. This variation is an evolution of forms. Evolution of being, where being exists in contrast to nothing, is pure being freely coming from nothing. This freedom of being from nothing is the will of being thus necessitating being occuring through free will.
IF 'you' EVER get around to EXPLAINING what 'free will' is, to 'you', then 'we' can START LOOKING AT and DISCUSSING 'this'.

Until then what 'you' are talking about and/or referring to here, ONLY 'you' KNOW.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 4. If free will requires determinism and determinism requires free will then both free will and determinism coexist.
LOL There is NO dispute that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. So, 'you' do NOT need to keep 'trying to' argue for this conclusion.

What 'you' NEED to do, from my perspective, is just SHOW and PROVE how 'you' arrived at that conclusion, in a logically reasoned way. So far, 'you' have NOT YET.

Also, what I was putting forward, through a clarifying question, was; HAS 'free will' ALWAYS coexisted with 'determinism', or, did 'free' will' come to exist, somewhere along the evolutionary line of 'things'?

I suggest STOP 'trying to' argue that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. To me, I think this is irrefutable anyway. Instead I suggest you START LOOKING AT the ACTUAL QUESTIONS I am putting forward, to you, and then just Honestly responding to them, ONLY. That way 'you' will then ACTUALLY find, and thus obtain, thee ACTUAL PROOF, which you are 'trying to' SHOW here.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:38 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:52 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:33 am
Existence is both real and imaginary, it is not an either/or question.
I see how you want to play.

Well, have fun. I'm out.
WHY are you 'out' when "others" can not or will not answer your questions, which you pose to "them"?

Especially considering the FACT that you can not and will not answer ALL questions posed to you.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

"Determinism" is the view that all phenomena are determined.

"Freedom" (and "free will" as a subset of it) is the view that there are at least some phenomena that are not determined.

Those two positions are mutually exclusive. If you think that all phenomena are determined, then it can't be the case that some phenomena are free.

If you think that at least some phenomena are free, then you can't think that all phenomena are determined.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:28 am WHY are you 'out' when "others" can not or will not answer your questions, which you pose to "them"?
Because it's impossible to make anything of somebody who doesn't even know (or is not willing to recognize) the difference between real and imaginary.

Rather like it's impossible to make headway with a person who only responds with questions, and never allows for intelligent progress.

Same deal.

Unless you like the experience of trying to drill a hole in water, you're better to be "out."
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:41 pm "Determinism" is the view that all phenomena are determined.

"Freedom" (and "free will" as a subset of it) is the view that there are at least some phenomena that are not determined.

Those two positions are mutually exclusive. If you think that all phenomena are determined, then it can't be the case that some phenomena are free.

If you think that at least some phenomena are free, then you can't think that all phenomena are determined.
All that is absolutely correct.

Concisely put, TS.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:20 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:00 am

WHY?

Why can change NOT HAPPEN by just free will alone?

What you said here infers that ALL decisions are predetermined anyway, which opposes and is contrary to the idea of free will. Or if you mean something else, then what do you mean?



What does the 'it' word refer to here?

And, saying, "determinism requires free will" implies that free will ALWAYS existed alongside determinism or prior to determinism. Whereas is it NOT possible that free will came to exist through the evolutionary process later along the evolutionary line, or after?



Well this is just BLATANTLY OBVIOUS anyway, to 'me'.

But maybe if you explained what 'determinism' and 'free will' ACTUALLY IS, to 'you', then that might help in understanding how you reached this conclusion here. From your 1. and 2. wording this certainly did NOT help in arriving, logically nor reasonably, at this 3. conclusion, well not from my perspective anyway.
1. An act of free will requires further actions to occur from that choice thus necessitating determinism coming from free will.
EVERY 'action' required a previous action.

To me, however, an act of 'free will' does NOT "require" ANY thing. However, from EVERY act of 'free will' a further action, naturally, occurs, anyway.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 2. "It" references the totality of being as the conversation and concept of free will emerges within the fabric of being.
Your words here, AGAIN, are NOT helping 'me', at all, understand 'you' better. For example, from the very first word of your sentence I have ABSOLUTELY NO idea NOR clue as to what you are referring to NOT meaning.

Was just using thee ACTUAL word that the word "it" here was referring instead of using the 'it' word REALLY to hard to do?

Or, did you NOT use 'that word' for some other reason?

If yes, then what was that reason, EXACTLY?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 3. If free will came through evolution a contradiction entails given both free will and evolution are agents of change thus necessitating "change" as a phenomenon being divided. In the act of free will a change occurs in a form with this new form being a variation of the prior form. This variation is an evolution of forms. Evolution of being, where being exists in contrast to nothing, is pure being freely coming from nothing. This freedom of being from nothing is the will of being thus necessitating being occuring through free will.
IF 'you' EVER get around to EXPLAINING what 'free will' is, to 'you', then 'we' can START LOOKING AT and DISCUSSING 'this'.

Until then what 'you' are talking about and/or referring to here, ONLY 'you' KNOW.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:25 pm 4. If free will requires determinism and determinism requires free will then both free will and determinism coexist.
LOL There is NO dispute that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. So, 'you' do NOT need to keep 'trying to' argue for this conclusion.

What 'you' NEED to do, from my perspective, is just SHOW and PROVE how 'you' arrived at that conclusion, in a logically reasoned way. So far, 'you' have NOT YET.

Also, what I was putting forward, through a clarifying question, was; HAS 'free will' ALWAYS coexisted with 'determinism', or, did 'free' will' come to exist, somewhere along the evolutionary line of 'things'?

I suggest STOP 'trying to' argue that 'free will' and 'determinism' coexist. To me, I think this is irrefutable anyway. Instead I suggest you START LOOKING AT the ACTUAL QUESTIONS I am putting forward, to you, and then just Honestly responding to them, ONLY. That way 'you' will then ACTUALLY find, and thus obtain, thee ACTUAL PROOF, which you are 'trying to' SHOW here.
You want proof but you do not define proof thus leading your version of proof to be open ended subjective interpretation. You want interpretations that fit your already held assumptions and beliefs.

1. Free will is an action. Action builds upon action thus necessitating free will as part of a cause and effect chain.

2. "It" references all of being. Free will emerges as part of the totality of being as in looking at the totality of being free will is part of it strictly because we are discussing it. This discussion is part of the totality of being thus necessitating we are observing free will as a phenomenon.

3. Free will is change initiated through the "I".

4. The proof of free will existing is the fact we are observing it through a conversation. It cannot be an illusion as an illusion implies deception and deception requires a choice between truth and falsity.

The proof if determinism is the fact that one action precedes another, one action builds upon another.

The proof that they coexist is that if everything is determined then this conversation of free will, hence of the observation of free will, determines free will existing as a phenomenon. If free will exists a series of actions build upon the prior actions chosen, much in the same manner we chose to discuss free will and a series of thoughts (ie actions) build upon prior thoughts (actions).

5. Free will has always existed along determinism given the evolution of patterns necessitated an intelligence behind them given intelligence is pattern manipulation. Evolution is pattern variation thus is synonymous to determinism. This pattern variation necessitates a universal intelligence.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:38 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:52 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:33 am
Existence is both real and imaginary, it is not an either/or question.
I see how you want to play.

Well, have fun. I'm out.
What you fail to see is that real phenomenon exist as real and imaginary exist as imaginary. One is observed through the senses the other is not yet both are observed through the mind non the less thus necessitating something is being observed.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:41 pm "Determinism" is the view that all phenomena are determined.

"Freedom" (and "free will" as a subset of it) is the view that there are at least some phenomena that are not determined.

Those two positions are mutually exclusive. If you think that all phenomena are determined, then it can't be the case that some phenomena are free.

If you think that at least some phenomena are free, then you can't think that all phenomena are determined.
You did not read the beginning post then.

If a choice is made then a cause and effect chain is built upon that chain thus necessitating determinism stemming from free will.

Dually if everything is determined then this conversation and observation of free will is determined therefore making it determined free will is observed hence exists.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:42 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:28 am WHY are you 'out' when "others" can not or will not answer your questions, which you pose to "them"?
Because it's impossible to make anything of somebody who doesn't even know (or is not willing to recognize) the difference between real and imaginary.

Rather like it's impossible to make headway with a person who only responds with questions, and never allows for intelligent progress.

Same deal.

Unless you like the experience of trying to drill a hole in water, you're better to be "out."
See above response.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:07 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:41 pm "Determinism" is the view that all phenomena are determined.

"Freedom" (and "free will" as a subset of it) is the view that there are at least some phenomena that are not determined.

Those two positions are mutually exclusive. If you think that all phenomena are determined, then it can't be the case that some phenomena are free.

If you think that at least some phenomena are free, then you can't think that all phenomena are determined.
You did not read the beginning post then.

If a choice is made then a cause and effect chain is built upon that chain thus necessitating determinism stemming from free will.

Dually if everything is determined then this conversation and observation of free will is determined therefore making it determined free will is observed hence exists.
If a choice is possible, determinism doesn't obtain, because determinism means that ALL phenomena are deterministic; hence choices aren't possible under determinism (only the illusion of a choice would be possible).
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