Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Janoah
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Janoah »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:56 am

Do you not believe that there are antirealists on laws of nature or that there can be antirealists on laws of nature?
I believe that there are old women who do not believe in anything at all. And I believe that there are old women who believe in all old wives' tales.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:38 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:14 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:42 am (1) One believes that the world is comprised solely of physical things.
(2) One doesn't believe that there are any real natural laws.
What exactly is it that science discovers?
Ideally what there is (and isn't) and for the former, how it "behaves" or what it's like/what its characteristics are, what its "nature" is/how it works, which is also what philosophy ideally does, with science being differentiated by an emphasis on an experimental methodology. What science actually spends far too much time doing, however, is reifying mathematics and doing bad philosophy. (Not that philosophers don't also do a lot of bad philosophy, unfortunately.)
First let me say, that is almost exactly my view of science. I also agree with what you wrote to Janoah, "I can understand why folks believe in it more or less and at least desire for there to be a GUT. I don't think that the notion of real laws of nature really makes sense though, especially because it would require real abstracts that would essentially be akin to platonic universals."

That last point is perhaps most important. The so-called, "natural laws," or, "laws of physics," have been pre-empted and redefined by philosophers and mystics to imply those laws existed first and reality, in some way, is made to conform to the laws, which, as you point out, is akin to platonic universals. And, I might add, shear nonsense.

I also think your simple description of science is not only correct, but profound in its simplicity. All there is for science to study is, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works."

What a good scientist means by the, "laws of physics," or science are those aspects of, "what is," that have been discovered and correctly describe, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works," and that those discoveries are correct and every technological success (which depends on those scientific descriptions (laws) of what exists) are a success because reality really has that nature.

The physical world is not what it is because it conforms to some so-called laws of nature, the laws of nature (or physics or science) are only true if they correctly describe what is as it is. Physical laws do not determine what is or how it behaves, they can only describe what is and how it behaves.

[Personally I prefer the term, "scientific principles," to, "laws," because the word, "law," implies something, "enforced," which is exactly what is wrong with the common view of scientific law.]

Does that make sense to you?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:26 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:51 am
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:42 am (1) One believes that the world is comprised solely of physical things.
(2) One doesn't believe that there are any real natural laws.
So...you're suggesting a Physicalist can believe that the world's "substances," if we can use that word, are physical. And you use the word "solely," which means there's nothing at all excluded from that characterization of things. Right?

But you think a Physicalist doesn't have to believe that the dynamics or "laws" governing these substances are real or "physical"? :shock:

I'm going to need some clarification on that.
They can believe that there isn't anything "governing" matter.

"The world is solely comprised of physical things" doesn't imply "There is something governing (what) the world (is solely comprised of)."
So you do believe in Materialism, but you don't believe in any governing dynamics? That would suggest an inert universe, a "physical" without any "physics," wouldn't it?

Again, you're going to help me understand how the matter can move or change if it has no physics or dynamics.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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So you do believe in Materialism, but you don't believe in any governing dynamics? That would suggest an inert universe, a "physical" without any "physics," wouldn't it?

Again, you're going to help me understand how the matter can move or change if it has no physics or dynamics
.

It's simple: there is no natural law (foundational organizing principles [more on point: there is no First Principle] {even more on point: there is no Prime Mover}).

There is only matter (material).

And material is just a cloud of potential (mistaken by certain peculiar aggregates of material [that would be us] as actual and ordered).

All organization of matter (material [potential]), and Reality itself (as the domain of actuality [which it isn't]), is just dumb luck. Just a blip of nuthin' that mistook itself for sunthin' that will de-blip. Reality, and all things within, just a hiccup in the Void.

When you strip away fine language: the above is what they say.

nuthin' from nuthin' is nuthin'
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:10 pm So you do believe in Materialism, but you don't believe in any governing dynamics?
Correct--at least not as anything like natural/physical laws. (Which is what I've been saying over and over.)
That would suggest an inert universe, a "physical" without any "physics," wouldn't it?
Re the physics part, only if you equate physics with natural/physical law realism. I do not. (Nor do any other antirealists on natural/physical laws.)

Also, as I specified earlier:
* Physicalism is not any sort of deference to or subservience to the scientific discipline of physics.
* Physicalism is not a cheerleading section or fan club etc. for the scientific discipline of physics.

Both "physicalism" and "physics" employ the same etymological source, but that doesn't make one dependent on, auxiliary to, etc. the other.
Again, you're going to help me understand how the matter can move or change if it has no physics or dynamics.
Why? Physicalism HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEORIES OF WHY MATTER MOVES OR CHANGES.

Physicalism is MERELY a thesis about what sorts of things there are. About what comprises the "furniture of the world" so to speak. Physicalists say that it's not the case that everything is water, or the apeiron, or toast, or ideas, but "physical things." That's it.

The only thing that physicalism would have to do with theories of why matter moves or changes is that a physicalist would say that "why," assuming they even agree there is a "why"--they wouldn't have to agree with that--must be something physical.

This is just like atheism NOT being a thesis about (pro or con or whatever) evolution or abortion ethics or anything like that. Atheism is MERELY a view about whether gods exist. That's it. Nothing else is required for atheism. Atheists can have any imaginable view about evolution or abortion ethics or anything else.

Nothing else is required for physicalism aside from a belief that everything extant is physical. That's it.
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Janoah wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:11 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:56 am

Do you not believe that there are antirealists on laws of nature or that there can be antirealists on laws of nature?
I believe that there are old women who do not believe in anything at all. And I believe that there are old women who believe in all old wives' tales.
Okay . . . so what about natural/physical law antirealists?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:38 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:14 am
What exactly is it that science discovers?
Ideally what there is (and isn't) and for the former, how it "behaves" or what it's like/what its characteristics are, what its "nature" is/how it works, which is also what philosophy ideally does, with science being differentiated by an emphasis on an experimental methodology. What science actually spends far too much time doing, however, is reifying mathematics and doing bad philosophy. (Not that philosophers don't also do a lot of bad philosophy, unfortunately.)
First let me say, that is almost exactly my view of science. I also agree with what you wrote to Janoah, "I can understand why folks believe in it more or less and at least desire for there to be a GUT. I don't think that the notion of real laws of nature really makes sense though, especially because it would require real abstracts that would essentially be akin to platonic universals."

That last point is perhaps most important. The so-called, "natural laws," or, "laws of physics," have been pre-empted and redefined by philosophers and mystics to imply those laws existed first and reality, in some way, is made to conform to the laws, which, as you point out, is akin to platonic universals. And, I might add, shear nonsense.

I also think your simple description of science is not only correct, but profound in its simplicity. All there is for science to study is, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works."

What a good scientist means by the, "laws of physics," or science are those aspects of, "what is," that have been discovered and correctly describe, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works," and that those discoveries are correct and every technological success (which depends on those scientific descriptions (laws) of what exists) are a success because reality really has that nature.

The physical world is not what it is because it conforms to some so-called laws of nature, the laws of nature (or physics or science) are only true if they correctly describe what is as it is. Physical laws do not determine what is or how it behaves, they can only describe what is and how it behaves.

[Personally I prefer the term, "scientific principles," to, "laws," because the word, "law," implies something, "enforced," which is exactly what is wrong with the common view of scientific law.]

Does that make sense to you?
Sure, physical law as an abstraction, as a way of thinking about observations and stating generalizations about them, are fine. And that's NOT natural/physical law realism by the way, but antirealism. In other words, natural/physical laws are not something objective that actually exist in any manner. They're a subjective, generalized way of thinking and talking about observations.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:15 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:38 am
Ideally what there is (and isn't) and for the former, how it "behaves" or what it's like/what its characteristics are, what its "nature" is/how it works, which is also what philosophy ideally does, with science being differentiated by an emphasis on an experimental methodology. What science actually spends far too much time doing, however, is reifying mathematics and doing bad philosophy. (Not that philosophers don't also do a lot of bad philosophy, unfortunately.)
First let me say, that is almost exactly my view of science. I also agree with what you wrote to Janoah, "I can understand why folks believe in it more or less and at least desire for there to be a GUT. I don't think that the notion of real laws of nature really makes sense though, especially because it would require real abstracts that would essentially be akin to platonic universals."

That last point is perhaps most important. The so-called, "natural laws," or, "laws of physics," have been pre-empted and redefined by philosophers and mystics to imply those laws existed first and reality, in some way, is made to conform to the laws, which, as you point out, is akin to platonic universals. And, I might add, shear nonsense.

I also think your simple description of science is not only correct, but profound in its simplicity. All there is for science to study is, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works."

What a good scientist means by the, "laws of physics," or science are those aspects of, "what is," that have been discovered and correctly describe, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works," and that those discoveries are correct and every technological success (which depends on those scientific descriptions (laws) of what exists) are a success because reality really has that nature.

The physical world is not what it is because it conforms to some so-called laws of nature, the laws of nature (or physics or science) are only true if they correctly describe what is as it is. Physical laws do not determine what is or how it behaves, they can only describe what is and how it behaves.

[Personally I prefer the term, "scientific principles," to, "laws," because the word, "law," implies something, "enforced," which is exactly what is wrong with the common view of scientific law.]

Does that make sense to you?
Sure, physical law as an abstraction, as a way of thinking about observations and stating generalizations about them, are fine. And that's NOT natural/physical law realism by the way, but antirealism. In other words, natural/physical laws are not something objective that actually exist in any manner. They're a subjective, generalized way of thinking and talking about observations.
I'm sorry, I really do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that all that science has discovered is nothing more than, "generalizations," that are not rigorously correct descriptions of any attributes of physical reality? What you've written sounds like a repudiation of scientific achievement as nothing more than some kind of inadequate, "generalizations," but perhaps that's not what you mean.

If possible, could you please evade referring to various, "-isms," which I have neither interest in or use for. I'm only interested in what you mean, not how it relates to some ideology or another.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:15 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:53 pm
First let me say, that is almost exactly my view of science. I also agree with what you wrote to Janoah, "I can understand why folks believe in it more or less and at least desire for there to be a GUT. I don't think that the notion of real laws of nature really makes sense though, especially because it would require real abstracts that would essentially be akin to platonic universals."

That last point is perhaps most important. The so-called, "natural laws," or, "laws of physics," have been pre-empted and redefined by philosophers and mystics to imply those laws existed first and reality, in some way, is made to conform to the laws, which, as you point out, is akin to platonic universals. And, I might add, shear nonsense.

I also think your simple description of science is not only correct, but profound in its simplicity. All there is for science to study is, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works."

What a good scientist means by the, "laws of physics," or science are those aspects of, "what is," that have been discovered and correctly describe, "what there is," "how it behaves," "what it is it like," "its characteristics," "its nature," and "how it works," and that those discoveries are correct and every technological success (which depends on those scientific descriptions (laws) of what exists) are a success because reality really has that nature.

The physical world is not what it is because it conforms to some so-called laws of nature, the laws of nature (or physics or science) are only true if they correctly describe what is as it is. Physical laws do not determine what is or how it behaves, they can only describe what is and how it behaves.

[Personally I prefer the term, "scientific principles," to, "laws," because the word, "law," implies something, "enforced," which is exactly what is wrong with the common view of scientific law.]

Does that make sense to you?
Sure, physical law as an abstraction, as a way of thinking about observations and stating generalizations about them, are fine. And that's NOT natural/physical law realism by the way, but antirealism. In other words, natural/physical laws are not something objective that actually exist in any manner. They're a subjective, generalized way of thinking and talking about observations.
I'm sorry, I really do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that all that science has discovered is nothing more than, "generalizations," that are not rigorously correct descriptions of any attributes of physical reality? What you've written sounds like a repudiation of scientific achievement as nothing more than some kind of inadequate, "generalizations," but perhaps that's not what you mean.

If possible, could you please evade referring to various, "-isms," which I have neither interest in or use for. I'm only interested in what you mean, not how it relates to some ideology or another.
We make generalizations. We don't discover them per se. Because there are no general things in the world--there are only unique particulars. Abstractions are something we do, not something we discover.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:10 pm That would suggest an inert universe, a "physical" without any "physics," wouldn't it?
Re the physics part, only if you equate physics with natural/physical law realism. I do not. (Nor do any other antirealists on natural/physical laws.)
Well, no.

If the dynamics are not physical, then Physicalism is untrue. There ARE then things in the universe that are not physics -- namely, the governing dynamics. And that raises an obvious second question: if the governing dynamics are not "natural laws," or "physics," then what are you postulating that they are? Supernatural?
Physicalism is MERELY a thesis about what sorts of things there are.
But the dynamics is a "thing" that "is." And you say it's not physical...
Nothing else is required for physicalism aside from a belief that everything extant is physical. That's it.
But it's a neat trick...you're calling whatever forces mobilize the "physical" stuff non-physical, and then claiming "everything extant" is still "physical."

But apparently, you either don't think the dynamics are "extant" or "existent," or you do, but you believe their some kind of "non-physical" thing.

So maybe you can explain to me what a non-physical dynamic consists of...
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:55 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:15 pm

Sure, physical law as an abstraction, as a way of thinking about observations and stating generalizations about them, are fine. And that's NOT natural/physical law realism by the way, but antirealism. In other words, natural/physical laws are not something objective that actually exist in any manner. They're a subjective, generalized way of thinking and talking about observations.
I'm sorry, I really do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that all that science has discovered is nothing more than, "generalizations," that are not rigorously correct descriptions of any attributes of physical reality? What you've written sounds like a repudiation of scientific achievement as nothing more than some kind of inadequate, "generalizations," but perhaps that's not what you mean.

If possible, could you please evade referring to various, "-isms," which I have neither interest in or use for. I'm only interested in what you mean, not how it relates to some ideology or another.
We make generalizations. We don't discover them per se. Because there are no general things in the world--there are only unique particulars. Abstractions are something we do, not something we discover.
I still don't know what you are getting at. I don't know what you mean by a generalization, and I don't know what you mean by an abstraction. Perhaps you could give examples. I can suggest some, but I'm only be guessing.

Is a formula, like: is E =1/2 x m x v^2 a generalization or an abstraction?

Would any specific entry in the periodic table of the elements describing the attributes of an element be either an abstraction or generalization?

Would a description of the nature of lased light be an abstraction or generalization?

Would a chemical formula for a compound be like potassium nitrate (KNO3) be either an abstraction or generalization?

Would the description of a fractal or "strange-attractor," phenomenon be either an abstraction or generalization?

I'm not asking you to answer all those questions, just suggesting some things you might mean. Pick one, if you like, to explain how it is either an abstraction or generalization.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:13 pm And material is just a cloud of potential (mistaken by certain peculiar aggregates of material [that would be us] as actual and ordered).

All organization of matter (material [potential]), and Reality itself (as the domain of actuality [which it isn't]), is just dumb luck. Just a blip of nuthin' that mistook itself for sunthin' that will de-blip. Reality, and all things within, just a hiccup in the Void.

When you strip away fine language: the above is what they say.

nuthin' from nuthin' is nuthin'
That's it? :shock:

Wow. Is that ever...well, I'll have to wait to see what TS says, because I'm reluctant to attribute to him a belief that is so obviously contradictory of itself.

If "dumb luck" ran the universe, there would be no possibility at all of science. For by definition, you can't predict "dumb luck." Unless something at least constrains the range of possible "potential" alternatives, then there are no predictions possible, no matter how one treats any data. Knowledge itself would become not simply questionable, but utterly unachievable. And there would most certainly be no such creatures as we are, and no such universe as we inhabit, if "dumb luck" was the basic dynamic of the universe.

So if that's what they believe, I'll have to hear it from TS's own mouth...or beak...whichever it is.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:41 am
henry quirk wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:13 pm And material is just a cloud of potential (mistaken by certain peculiar aggregates of material [that would be us] as actual and ordered).

All organization of matter (material [potential]), and Reality itself (as the domain of actuality [which it isn't]), is just dumb luck. Just a blip of nuthin' that mistook itself for sunthin' that will de-blip. Reality, and all things within, just a hiccup in the Void.

When you strip away fine language: the above is what they say.

nuthin' from nuthin' is nuthin'
That's it? :shock:

Wow. Is that ever...well, I'll have to wait to see what TS says, because I'm reluctant to attribute to him a belief that is so obviously contradictory of itself.

If "dumb luck" ran the universe, there would be no possibility at all of science. For by definition, you can't predict "dumb luck." Unless something at least constrains the range of possible "potential" alternatives, then there are no predictions possible, no matter how one treats any data. Knowledge itself would become not simply questionable, but utterly unachievable. And there would most certainly be no such creatures as we are, and no such universe as we inhabit, if "dumb luck" was the basic dynamic of the universe.

So if that's what they believe, I'll have to hear it from TS's own mouth...or beak...whichever it is.
Oh, I'm sure I'm completely off the mark.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Janoah »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:12 pm
Janoah wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:11 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:56 am

Do you not believe that there are antirealists on laws of nature or that there can be antirealists on laws of nature?
I believe that there are old women who do not believe in anything at all. And I believe that there are old women who believe in all old wives' tales.
Okay . . . so what about natural/physical law antirealists?
The regularity of nature is a scientific fact, it is incorrect not to recognize a scientific fact. Invite someone who does not believe in the law of gravity to jump from the roof, but he will not jump, because he is sure that the law of nature exists.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:59 am If the dynamics are not physical, then Physicalism is untrue.
We're not talking about whether physicalism is "true" or not. We're talking about possible views that people can have.

If someone is a physicalist, they're not going to think that there's anything that's not physical. And that's the basic assumption here, that we're talking about people who are physicalists, whether physicalism is true or not.

So a physicalist who isn't a natural/physical law realist isn't going to think that "the world has no physics" unless they equate physics with natural/physical laws. They're not going to think that there are natural/physical laws that aren't themselves physical. They're physicalists and they're natural/physical law antirealists. Again, this has nothing to do with whether their views are correct. All I'm trying to explain to you is how they can have the views they have (which you're going to believe are incorrect views). No one cares that you think the views are incorrect. But you should be able to understand how someone could have those (incorrect, in your opinion) views.
. . . namely, the governing dynamics . . .
Again, a possible view is that THERE ARE NO GOVERNING DYNAMICS. You'll think that view is false, of course, but you should be capable of understanding how someone could have the view. That's all I care about.
But the dynamics is a "thing" that "is." And you say it's not physical...
Again, some people believe that THERE ARE NO GOVERNING DYNAMICS. Is that going in one ear and right out the other for you?
But it's a neat trick...you're calling whatever forces mobilize the "physical" stuff non-physical,
Holy cow you really, really are incapable of reading. I said nothing like that.
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