Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Eodnhoj7
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Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.

2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.

3. Free will and determinism coexist.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.
WHY?

Why can change NOT HAPPEN by just free will alone?

What you said here infers that ALL decisions are predetermined anyway, which opposes and is contrary to the idea of free will. Or if you mean something else, then what do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.
What does the 'it' word refer to here?

And, saying, "determinism requires free will" implies that free will ALWAYS existed alongside determinism or prior to determinism. Whereas is it NOT possible that free will came to exist through the evolutionary process later along the evolutionary line, or after?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 3. Free will and determinism coexist.
Well this is just BLATANTLY OBVIOUS anyway, to 'me'.

But maybe if you explained what 'determinism' and 'free will' ACTUALLY IS, to 'you', then that might help in understanding how you reached this conclusion here. From your 1. and 2. wording this certainly did NOT help in arriving, logically nor reasonably, at this 3. conclusion, well not from my perspective anyway.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:00 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.
WHY?

Why can change NOT HAPPEN by just free will alone?

What you said here infers that ALL decisions are predetermined anyway, which opposes and is contrary to the idea of free will. Or if you mean something else, then what do you mean?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.
What does the 'it' word refer to here?

And, saying, "determinism requires free will" implies that free will ALWAYS existed alongside determinism or prior to determinism. Whereas is it NOT possible that free will came to exist through the evolutionary process later along the evolutionary line, or after?
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 3. Free will and determinism coexist.
Well this is just BLATANTLY OBVIOUS anyway, to 'me'.

But maybe if you explained what 'determinism' and 'free will' ACTUALLY IS, to 'you', then that might help in understanding how you reached this conclusion here. From your 1. and 2. wording this certainly did NOT help in arriving, logically nor reasonably, at this 3. conclusion, well not from my perspective anyway.
1. An act of free will requires further actions to occur from that choice thus necessitating determinism coming from free will.

2. "It" references the totality of being as the conversation and concept of free will emerges within the fabric of being.

3. If free will came through evolution a contradiction entails given both free will and evolution are agents of change thus necessitating "change" as a phenomenon being divided. In the act of free will a change occurs in a form with this new form being a variation of the prior form. This variation is an evolution of forms. Evolution of being, where being exists in contrast to nothing, is pure being freely coming from nothing. This freedom of being from nothing is the will of being thus necessitating being occuring through free will.

4. If free will requires determinism and determinism requires free will then both free will and determinism coexist.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.

2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.

3. Free will and determinism coexist.
Even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.

You got the gist right, but for all wrong reasons.

The physical universe is determined, and understandable in terms of inviolable principles, else the knowledge necessary for volition would not be possible. But knowledge is only possible to conscious rational beings, and consciousness is not physical or determined, else both knowledge and volition would not be possible.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:03 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.

2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.

3. Free will and determinism coexist.
Even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.

You got the gist right, but for all wrong reasons.

The physical universe is determined, and understandable in terms of inviolable principles, else the knowledge necessary for volition would not be possible. But knowledge is only possible to conscious rational beings, and consciousness is not physical or determined, else both knowledge and volition would not be possible.
If the universe is determined, and everything including concepts are determined as they are rooted in this universe, then free will is determined to exist.

Dually if the universe is determined by principles and principles are only determined by conscious beings (as a principle is a rationalization of order), then the universe is either self aware or its principles only exist in the mind of the observer.

Third if consciousness is not physical or determined then why does brain damage affect one's rationality?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:31 pm If the universe is determined, and everything including concepts are determined as they are rooted in this universe, then free will is determined to exist.
No, that does not follow. I agree that free will is real, but not for those reasons.

It might be the case that people are predetermined to have a concept called "free will," but no more than a concept...and this concept has no more reality than pixies or mermaids do. That's what Determinists will say is the case.

There are actually two mistakes people make when they start a discussion on Determinism versus Free Will: one is to absolutize the latter, and the other is to relativize the former. Both produce error.

Free will is never absolute. It is not the case that free will advocates have to believe that everything is "free." They don't have to disbelieve in scientific laws, or probability patterns, cause-and-effect, or anything like that. They don't insist free will describes everything. And for the very reason you suggested earlier (namely that free will actually presupposes the existence of pattern, reliability, laws, etc.), they not only can, but have to insist that some elements of reality are fixed and predictable. That's no problem to belief in free will. It's not absolute.

You can also see this if you try to stretch your mind to imagine a universe in which nothing predictable, law-like, or regular ever happened, where everything was random. There would be no free will in such a universe, because it would be devoid of anything that could make "will" effective. Nothing one did could be relied upon to produce a particular outcome; so all choices would be futile and ineffective. Ironically, this would be a Determined universe: just one predetermined to be chaotic, not predictable or regular in any way. And free will would be impossible there.

So that's free will: "free" never means "absolute." It simply means that human will is ONE OF the factors that produce particular outcomes...not that it has to be -- or even can be -- the only one.

But Determinism is different. It is absolute. Determinism says that NOTHING is not fated or predetermined by forces (usually material, but in religious cases, spiritual) that compel the individual into particular actions. There is, in the causal chain, no such link human "will." Human beings are essentially automatons, predetermined by biochemistry, or physics, or social dynamics, all of which are also predetermined by prior factors.

So you can have free will with some fixed or law-governed elements in the universe. But you cannot have Determinism with ANY smidgen of free will. If you do, then the truth is that free will exists, and Determinism isn't true.

The upshot: free will is relative, in the sense that we can argue over whether there is more or less of it, without departing the postulate of free will, and can allow that some elements of the world are law-governed, with no rational problem created by us doing that.

But Determinism is absolute: it can admit of no degrees. It has to hold absolutely, or not at all.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:52 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:31 pm If the universe is determined, and everything including concepts are determined as they are rooted in this universe, then free will is determined to exist.
No, that does not follow. I agree that free will is real, but not for those reasons.

It might be the case that people are predetermined to have a concept called "free will," but no more than a concept...and this concept has no more reality than pixies or mermaids do. That's what Determinists will say is the case.

There are actually two mistakes people make when they start a discussion on Determinism versus Free Will: one is to absolutize the latter, and the other is to relativize the former. Both produce error.

Free will is never absolute. It is not the case that free will advocates have to believe that everything is "free." They don't have to disbelieve in scientific laws, or probability patterns, cause-and-effect, or anything like that. They don't insist free will describes everything. And for the very reason you suggested earlier (namely that free will actually presupposes the existence of pattern, reliability, laws, etc.), they not only can, but have to insist that some elements of reality are fixed and predictable. That's no problem to belief in free will. It's not absolute.

You can also see this if you try to stretch your mind to imagine a universe in which nothing predictable, law-like, or regular ever happened, where everything was random. There would be no free will in such a universe, because it would be devoid of anything that could make "will" effective. Nothing one did could be relied upon to produce a particular outcome; so all choices would be futile and ineffective. Ironically, this would be a Determined universe: just one predetermined to be chaotic, not predictable or regular in any way. And free will would be impossible there.

So that's free will: "free" never means "absolute." It simply means that human will is ONE OF the factors that produce particular outcomes...not that it has to be -- or even can be -- the only one.

But Determinism is different. It is absolute. Determinism says that NOTHING is not fated or predetermined by forces (usually material, but in religious cases, spiritual) that compel the individual into particular actions. There is, in the causal chain, no such link human "will." Human beings are essentially automatons, predetermined by biochemistry, or physics, or social dynamics, all of which are also predetermined by prior factors.

So you can have free will with some fixed or law-governed elements in the universe. But you cannot have Determinism with ANY smidgen of free will. If you do, then the truth is that free will exists, and Determinism isn't true.

The upshot: free will is relative, in the sense that we can argue over whether there is more or less of it, without departing the postulate of free will, and can allow that some elements of the world are law-governed, with no rational problem created by us doing that.

But Determinism is absolute: it can admit of no degrees. It has to hold absolutely, or not at all.
1. The concept of free will necessitates free will as existing as a concept. If all reality is consciously measured through concepts and concepts are determined as extensions of the universe, with the universe being determined, then free will is determined.

2. Free will as existing as a concept is free will as absolutely existing as a concept. Free will is an absolute given exists, even if it only exists as a concept.

3. This is a paradox as you are making an absolute statement: "So that's free will: "free" never means "absolute." It simply means that human will is ONE OF the factors that produce particular outcomes...not that it has to be -- or even can be -- the only one."

4. Determinism can exist with free will involved given any choice made results in a causal chain of factors which stem from the choice. The choice results in a series of determined actions premised on the choice.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:10 pm 1. The concept of free will necessitates free will as existing as a concept. If all reality is consciously measured through concepts and concepts are determined as extensions of the universe, with the universe being determined, then free will is determined.
No, this is a mental error known as a "non-sequitur." What you're suggesting does not follow.

The term "existing as a concept" can just mean "imaginary." It doesn't necessarily mean "real."
3. This is a paradox as you are making an absolute statement: "So that's free will: "free" never means "absolute." It simply means that human will is ONE OF the factors that produce particular outcomes...not that it has to be -- or even can be -- the only one."
That isn't an "absolute statement." It's just a definitional one. It explains what the concept "free will" means, that's all.
4. ...any choice made results in a causal chain of factors which stem from the choice.
But you've now made another error called, "begging the question," meaning "taking for granted a conclusion you ought to prove."

Determinism cannot include "choice" in the causal chain. "Choice," for the Determinist," has to be no more that a rather strange "epiphenomenon," (that's the actually word they use). That means it's not real, but it's an illusion we have. It exists merely "as a concept," but does not "exist in reality as a causal factor."

I also note a third error: namely, that you equivocate the word "exist." To "exist as a concept" is not what is means when somebody says "this rock exists."
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:55 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:10 pm 1. The concept of free will necessitates free will as existing as a concept. If all reality is consciously measured through concepts and concepts are determined as extensions of the universe, with the universe being determined, then free will is determined.
No, this is a mental error known as a "non-sequitur." What you're suggesting does not follow.

The term "existing as a concept" can just mean "imaginary." It doesn't necessarily mean "real."
3. This is a paradox as you are making an absolute statement: "So that's free will: "free" never means "absolute." It simply means that human will is ONE OF the factors that produce particular outcomes...not that it has to be -- or even can be -- the only one."
That isn't an "absolute statement." It's just a definitional one. It explains what the concept "free will" means, that's all.
4. ...any choice made results in a causal chain of factors which stem from the choice.
But you've now made another error called, "begging the question," meaning "taking for granted a conclusion you ought to prove."

Determinism cannot include "choice" in the causal chain. "Choice," for the Determinist," has to be no more that a rather strange "epiphenomenon," (that's the actually word they use). That means it's not real, but it's an illusion we have. It exists merely "as a concept," but does not "exist in reality as a causal factor."

I also note a third error: namely, that you equivocate the word "exist." To "exist as a concept" is not what is means when somebody says "this rock exists."
1. Yet if all is rooted in the universe then what is imaginary is rooted in the universe as well.

2. The definition, if true, must be constant and as constant is absolute. If absolute then free will has absolute elements.

3. I said a choice results in determinism given any choice has a series of effects which follow from it. If for the deterministic choice exists as an illusion then that necessitates choice as a real factor in determinism given one cannot be decieved unless they can choose between phenomenon.

4. If existence has multiple definitions then these multiple definitions are tied together under the nature of existing. You are creating a paradox if you say "exist" does not equal "exist". Both the concept and the rock exist thus necessitating a shared nature.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:08 am 1. Yet if all is rooted in the universe then what is imaginary is rooted in the universe as well.
Now you're not using the word "root" the same way in both statements. Do you mean "root" as "actually real," or only as "imaginary"?
2. The definition, if true, must be constant...
Well, only between the two people communicating. It's certainly not "absolute." Definitions can also be "provisional" or even "stipulated."

3. I said a choice results in determinism
No, any actual choice eliminates Determinism.
4. If existence has multiple definitions then these multiple definitions are tied together under the nature of existing.
No, that's not true. "Exists" can be defined multiple ways, and you've already shown two: "exists as real," versus "exists as imaginary." The two are not the same.

And that's actually the point that Determinists are arguing: are phenomena of mind causal factors or not? The Determinists have to say an absolute, "No." The proponents of free will have to say that at least in some cases, the answer is "Yes."
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:47 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:08 am 1. Yet if all is rooted in the universe then what is imaginary is rooted in the universe as well.
Now you're not using the word "root" the same way in both statements. Do you mean "root" as "actually real," or only as "imaginary"?
2. The definition, if true, must be constant...
Well, only between the two people communicating. It's certainly not "absolute." Definitions can also be "provisional" or even "stipulated."

3. I said a choice results in determinism
No, any actual choice eliminates Determinism.
4. If existence has multiple definitions then these multiple definitions are tied together under the nature of existing.
No, that's not true. "Exists" can be defined multiple ways, and you've already shown two: "exists as real," versus "exists as imaginary." The two are not the same.

And that's actually the point that Determinists are arguing: are phenomena of mind causal factors or not? The Determinists have to say an absolute, "No." The proponents of free will have to say that at least in some cases, the answer is "Yes."
1. Root is origin. Origins are real.

2. Then there is no common definition for free will thus making any discussion of it relative thus potentially false. Absolutes are necessary for communication to occur.

3. Choice does not eliminate determinism because a cause and effect chain follows from any choice.

4. Exists as real is existence as real. Exists as imaginary is existence as imaginary. Either way existence occurs for both phenomena.

5. In a deterministic universe it is determined this conversation is real. As real the phenomenon of free will is determined to exist.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:00 am 1. Root is origin. Origins are real.
No, Spiderman has an "origin." But he's not real. He has an imaginary origin.

Are you tracking this? :shock:
2. Then there is no common definition for free will
You're not paying attention. So long as you and I have a common definition, we're good. And you and I can decide what it is, no problem.

So do you want to talk about things that are actually real, or things that are only real as concepts, but don't actually exist? You pick it, and we'll use that definition.
3. Choice does not eliminate determinism because a cause and effect chain follows from any choice.
Determinists deny that "choice" is in the material-causal chain at all. So no, it doesn't.
4. Exists as real is existence as real. Exists as imaginary is existence as imaginary.

Two different things, then: the real, and the imaginary. You've just said it.
5. As real the phenomenon of free will is determined to exist.
Determinists deny that it IS real. So no, it's not "determined" at all, according to them. It's not real. It's a mere "epiphenomenon."
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:00 am 1. Root is origin. Origins are real.
No, Spiderman has an "origin." But he's not real. He has an imaginary origin.

Are you tracking this? :shock:
2. Then there is no common definition for free will
You're not paying attention. So long as you and I have a common definition, we're good. And you and I can decide what it is, no problem.

So do you want to talk about things that are actually real, or things that are only real as concepts, but don't actually exist? You pick it, and we'll use that definition.
3. Choice does not eliminate determinism because a cause and effect chain follows from any choice.
Determinists deny that "choice" is in the material-causal chain at all. So no, it doesn't.
4. Exists as real is existence as real. Exists as imaginary is existence as imaginary.

Two different things, then: the real, and the imaginary. You've just said it.
5. As real the phenomenon of free will is determined to exist.
Determinists deny that it IS real. So no, it's not "determined" at all, according to them. It's not real. It's a mere "epiphenomenon."
1. But the origin as imaginary is real as imaginary. Are you following this at all.

2. Reality is reality whether it is real as an actual truth or real as an imaginary. Realness is being. The actual exists as actual, the imaginary as imaginary. Existence is.

3. So no cause and effect actions result from a choice? Without a cause and effect chain from a choice then choice does not exist at all.

4. Yet both real and imaginary share the same concept of existence as a medial, or rather middle, term.

5. Determinism cannot have any illusions exist considering illusion necessitates a choice between truth and falsity occuring. One cannot be decieved unless they choose a falsity. Illusion necessitates choice.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:18 am 1. But the origin as imaginary is real as imaginary.
So "imaginary" and "real" are exactly the same to you? :shock:
2. Reality is reality whether it is real as an actual truth or real as an imaginary.
Apparently, the answer to my question above is "Yes." You don't know the difference, it seems. :?
3. So no cause and effect actions result from a choice?
According to Determinists, yes, that's exactly right.
Without a cause and effect chain from a choice then choice does not exist at all.
Determinists say that "choice" is not real; it's only imagined.
4. Yet both real and imaginary share the same concept of existence as a medial, or rather middle, term.
No, you're equivocating the word "existence" there.

Same problem: if you don't know any difference between "exists as real" and "exists in imagination," then you're going to imagine they're the same. But they're not.

A real tiger can eat you. An imaginary one never will.
5. Determinism cannot have any illusions
That's what they think. They say there are only "epiphenomena."
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:34 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:18 am 1. But the origin as imaginary is real as imaginary.
So "imaginary" and "real" are exactly the same to you? :shock:
2. Reality is reality whether it is real as an actual truth or real as an imaginary.
Apparently, the answer to my question above is "Yes." You don't know the difference, it seems. :?
3. So no cause and effect actions result from a choice?
According to Determinists, yes, that's exactly right.
Without a cause and effect chain from a choice then choice does not exist at all.
Determinists say that "choice" is not real; it's only imagined.
4. Yet both real and imaginary share the same concept of existence as a medial, or rather middle, term.
No, you're equivocating the word "existence" there.

Same problem: if you don't know any difference between "exists as real" and "exists in imagination," then you're going to imagine they're the same. But they're not.

A real tiger can eat you. An imaginary one never will.
5. Determinism cannot have any illusions
That's what they think. They say there are only "epiphenomena."
1. Both imaginary and real share the same nature in the fact both exist. The actual exists. The imaginary exists.

2. You are obsessed with differences while I am looking at similarities.

3. Determinism is contradictory as one cannot have the illusion of free will without necessitating a choice between truths necessary for the illusion to occur.

4. If equivocating the nature of the word "exists" or "existence" is the problem then no common definition can be observed given if existence is not existence then words do not share any common bonds. "Realness" and "Imaginary" share the same root term of "existence" thus have similarities. You are ignoring what I am saying. An imaginary tiger can consume your mind, so no an imaginary Tiger can consume you. Truth exists in grades.

5. Epiphenomena require choice.
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