Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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Janoah
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Janoah »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm
Janoah wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:02 pm

*That's one way to look at it.

Another...

Agent causation: a being who is not an event but who is an agent can cause events, in particular, his own actions. Agent causation contrasts with event causation, which occurs when an event causes another event. (swiped from the ubiquitous wikipedia)


**That's one way to look at it.

Another...

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/02/why-pion ... the-brain/ (a link I've posted many times, in multiple threads, cuz it's so damn useful)
The actions of the "agent", and everything that happens in it, including thinking, processes in neurons, everything obeys the laws of nature, and is "limited" by them. Is there a scientific opinion that something does not obey the laws of nature? After all, no.

If laws of nature obtain somehow, just what are they? What sort(s) of existent(s)? Where are they located? How do they instantiate in particulars? Etc.
this is an interesting question!
This can be discussed in a separate topic.

While we can say that there is no scientific opinion that something does not obey the laws of nature.
In my opinion, there is one common regularity of nature, and the formulated laws of nature are approximate, limited views on the one law of nature. That is, the laws of nature are not independent, but united in the one law of nature.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Janoah wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm
Janoah wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:33 pm

The actions of the "agent", and everything that happens in it, including thinking, processes in neurons, everything obeys the laws of nature, and is "limited" by them. Is there a scientific opinion that something does not obey the laws of nature? After all, no.

If laws of nature obtain somehow, just what are they? What sort(s) of existent(s)? Where are they located? How do they instantiate in particulars? Etc.
this is an interesting question!
This can be discussed in a separate topic.

While we can say that there is no scientific opinion that something does not obey the laws of nature.
In my opinion, there is one common regularity of nature, and the formulated laws of nature are approximate, limited views on the one law of nature. That is, the laws of nature are not independent, but united in the one law of nature.
The "one law of nature"? Can you explain what you're thinking there?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:59 pm Page 11, multiple times.
Copying and pasting isn't that hard.
Nor is reading it. I've repeatedly objected.
I understand what Materialism and Physicalism entail.
I gave you a definition that you agreed to. That definition had nothing about determinism in it.
So you can define "Materialism." 8) What's the big deal with that? So can I.

Materalism's still deterministic, and Materialism's still reductionistic.

What I've been asking you to do is explain some way it's not. That's what you promised, and that's what you're not delivering.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:13 pm ...they're going to say that mentality is part of a physical, causal chain...."
No, they're going to have to say that "mentality" is an "epiphenomenon" (that's their word) which essentially means it's a byproduct, not a link in the causal chain itself.
I don't believe that the physical world in general is thoroughly such that only one option is possible from each antecedent state.
My two critiques of that response have already been offered. Page 9, box 3 from the top.
How is that not "proof" that I'm a physicalist who is not a determinist?
I didn't ask you, "are you a Physicalist and a Non-Determinist." You declared that at the start. And I certainly did not ask you, "Do you believe two things that are mutually contradictory." That's a totally uninteresting question.

The interesting question is, "IF you think they're not contradictory, do you have any way to show how they can both be true together?"

And the answer to that, so far, is a resounding "No." You've got nothing. You just hope, somehow, they'll turn out not to contradict, apparently. Because if you had something, you'd have offered it. I've certainly asked for it often enough.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:37 pm
You're a typical, time wasting, crank-like idiot. I'm done entertaining you.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

One very bad mistake being made in this entire discussion is about the nature of, "cause," and what determinism means.

The notion of "cause," was totally corrupted by Hume and the entire intellectual world has since swallowed his misrepresentation of cause, now almost universally described as, "cause and effect," meaning, "the same cause (event) always produces the same effect (event)."

Whatever it's called, in science, "cause," is never identified in those terms because scientific cause is not, "event," causation, but, "entity," causation. The wrong description of cause is, "event A will always result in effect B," or conversely, "effect B is always caused by event A." Three fundamental things are wrong with that view:

1. In the entire history of the word there have never been two identical events as either, "causes," or, "effects."

2. No event in history is isolated and every event is contingent on an infinite number of contributing variables.

3. Every event is the action of entities. What any entity does, how it behaves at any moment is determined by its own nature (the kind of entity it is) and it's immediate context (it's environment or it's relationship to all other entities).

The real meaning of the word, "cause," in the physical sciences, relative to events, is, "the explanation for." It is based on the principle that no physical event happens spontaneously, miraculously, by magic or without an explanation that is not itself physical. It does no mean the simple-minded sixth-grade notion of, "cause and effect."

The correct description of physical cause is based on the fact every entity has a specific nature that determines how it will behave relative to all other entities, which may be stated, "the same entity in the same context will always behave in the same way." Obviously, no two events are identical because there is never a single cause A that results in event B. Same cause same event is simply nonsense. For every event there are an infinite number of variables, any of which being different would result in a different event. In actual practice, very similar entities may be in very similar contexts, similar enough to satisfy any engineering requirements, but none will ever be identical.

What that means for determinism is that every physical event can only ever be what it is, because it is determined by what actually is, which is the nature of every entity which is part of that event. For every entity in every event is what it is and will behave as it does in that context and could never behave in any other way in that context. Every physical event is absolutely determined.

Statistics and probability are totally irrelevant to physical causation. There is no such thing as an indeterminate physical state, and every event that actually occurs had a 100% probability of happening.

Any event that actually occurs had a one hundred percent possibility of occurring, but no statistical method could ever have predicted it.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:46 pm One very bad mistake being made in this entire discussion is about the nature of, "cause," and what determinism means.

The notion of "cause," was totally corrupted by Hume and the entire intellectual world has since swallowed his misrepresentation of cause, now almost universally described as, "cause and effect," meaning, "the same cause (event) always produces the same effect (event)."

Whatever it's called, in science, "cause," is never identified in those terms because scientific cause is not, "event," causation, but, "entity," causation. The wrong description of cause is, "event A will always result in effect B," or conversely, "effect B is always caused by event A." Three fundamental things are wrong with that view:

1. In the entire history of the word there have never been two identical events as either, "causes," or, "effects."

2. No event in history is isolated and every event is contingent on an infinite number of contributing variables.

3. Every event is the action of entities. What any entity does, how it behaves at any moment is determined by its own nature (the kind of entity it is) and it's immediate context (it's environment or it's relationship to all other entities).

The real meaning of the word, "cause," in the physical sciences, relative to events, is, "the explanation for." It is based on the principle that no physical event happens spontaneously, miraculously, by magic or without an explanation that is not itself physical. It does no mean the simple-minded sixth-grade notion of, "cause and effect."

The correct description of physical cause is based on the fact every entity has a specific nature that determines how it will behave relative to all other entities, which may be stated, "the same entity in the same context will always behave in the same way." Obviously, no two events are identical because there is never a single cause A that results in event B. Same cause same event is simply nonsense. For every event there are an infinite number of variables, any of which being different would result in a different event. In actual practice, very similar entities may be in very similar contexts, similar enough to satisfy any engineering requirements, but none will ever be identical.

What that means for determinism is that every physical event can only ever be what it is, because it is determined by what actually is, which is the nature of every entity which is part of that event. For every entity in every event is what it is and will behave as it does in that context and could never behave in any other way in that context. Every physical event is absolutely determined.

Statistics and probability are totally irrelevant to physical causation. There is no such thing as an indeterminate physical state, and every event that actually occurs had a 100% probability of happening.

Any event that actually occurs had a one hundred percent possibility of occurring, but no statistical method could ever have predicted it.
What you wrote is a complete mess for maybe 20 or 30 different reasons.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:37 pm
You're a typical, time wasting, crank-like idiot. I'm done entertaining you.
No answer.

I'm disappointed. I thought you might have some rationale that allowed you to get from Materialism or Physicalism to Non-Determinism. Now it seems that all you had was wishful thinking.

So I guess that's okay. We move on. Nothing new to see here, obviously.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:46 pm One very bad mistake being made in this entire discussion is about the nature of, "cause," and what determinism means.

The notion of "cause," was totally corrupted by Hume and the entire intellectual world has since swallowed his misrepresentation of cause, now almost universally described as, "cause and effect," meaning, "the same cause (event) always produces the same effect (event)."

Whatever it's called, in science, "cause," is never identified in those terms because scientific cause is not, "event," causation, but, "entity," causation. The wrong description of cause is, "event A will always result in effect B," or conversely, "effect B is always caused by event A." Three fundamental things are wrong with that view:

1. In the entire history of the word there have never been two identical events as either, "causes," or, "effects."

2. No event in history is isolated and every event is contingent on an infinite number of contributing variables.

3. Every event is the action of entities. What any entity does, how it behaves at any moment is determined by its own nature (the kind of entity it is) and it's immediate context (it's environment or it's relationship to all other entities).

The real meaning of the word, "cause," in the physical sciences, relative to events, is, "the explanation for." It is based on the principle that no physical event happens spontaneously, miraculously, by magic or without an explanation that is not itself physical. It does no mean the simple-minded sixth-grade notion of, "cause and effect."

The correct description of physical cause is based on the fact every entity has a specific nature that determines how it will behave relative to all other entities, which may be stated, "the same entity in the same context will always behave in the same way." Obviously, no two events are identical because there is never a single cause A that results in event B. Same cause same event is simply nonsense. For every event there are an infinite number of variables, any of which being different would result in a different event. In actual practice, very similar entities may be in very similar contexts, similar enough to satisfy any engineering requirements, but none will ever be identical.

What that means for determinism is that every physical event can only ever be what it is, because it is determined by what actually is, which is the nature of every entity which is part of that event. For every entity in every event is what it is and will behave as it does in that context and could never behave in any other way in that context. Every physical event is absolutely determined.

Statistics and probability are totally irrelevant to physical causation. There is no such thing as an indeterminate physical state, and every event that actually occurs had a 100% probability of happening.

Any event that actually occurs had a one hundred percent possibility of occurring, but no statistical method could ever have predicted it.
The bottom line, by the way, is that people want to know if they can make a choice between at least two options or whether that's just an illusion. We could talk about something else instead, but whether we can make a choice between at least two options is still going to be an issue that people wander about, whatever we call it.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:37 pm
You're a typical, time wasting, crank-like idiot. I'm done entertaining you.
No answer.

I'm disappointed. I thought you might have some rationale that allowed you to get from Materialism or Physicalism to Non-Determinism. Now it seems that all you had was wishful thinking.

So I guess that's okay. We move on. Nothing new to see here, obviously.
I don't know if you're trolling or just stupid. You can't or won't really read (or at least you insist on acting like that's the case if you're trolling). It's not possible to explain some things to you (or again, you at least insist on acting as if it's not possible). Why would anyone waste time when that's the case?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:29 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:46 pm One very bad mistake being made in this entire discussion is about the nature of, "cause," and what determinism means.

The notion of "cause," was totally corrupted by Hume and the entire intellectual world has since swallowed his misrepresentation of cause, now almost universally described as, "cause and effect," meaning, "the same cause (event) always produces the same effect (event)."

Whatever it's called, in science, "cause," is never identified in those terms because scientific cause is not, "event," causation, but, "entity," causation. The wrong description of cause is, "event A will always result in effect B," or conversely, "effect B is always caused by event A." Three fundamental things are wrong with that view:

1. In the entire history of the word there have never been two identical events as either, "causes," or, "effects."

2. No event in history is isolated and every event is contingent on an infinite number of contributing variables.

3. Every event is the action of entities. What any entity does, how it behaves at any moment is determined by its own nature (the kind of entity it is) and it's immediate context (it's environment or it's relationship to all other entities).

The real meaning of the word, "cause," in the physical sciences, relative to events, is, "the explanation for." It is based on the principle that no physical event happens spontaneously, miraculously, by magic or without an explanation that is not itself physical. It does no mean the simple-minded sixth-grade notion of, "cause and effect."

The correct description of physical cause is based on the fact every entity has a specific nature that determines how it will behave relative to all other entities, which may be stated, "the same entity in the same context will always behave in the same way." Obviously, no two events are identical because there is never a single cause A that results in event B. Same cause same event is simply nonsense. For every event there are an infinite number of variables, any of which being different would result in a different event. In actual practice, very similar entities may be in very similar contexts, similar enough to satisfy any engineering requirements, but none will ever be identical.

What that means for determinism is that every physical event can only ever be what it is, because it is determined by what actually is, which is the nature of every entity which is part of that event. For every entity in every event is what it is and will behave as it does in that context and could never behave in any other way in that context. Every physical event is absolutely determined.

Statistics and probability are totally irrelevant to physical causation. There is no such thing as an indeterminate physical state, and every event that actually occurs had a 100% probability of happening.

Any event that actually occurs had a one hundred percent possibility of occurring, but no statistical method could ever have predicted it.
What you wrote is a complete mess for maybe 20 or 30 different reasons.
Don't worry about it. It wasn't addressed to you. It is only meant for those with attentions spans capable of sustained reason over something longer than your typical university, "text book."
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:09 pm
Like any good collectivist...
Are you on something? :lol:

The last thing I am is a "Collectivist." Wow; it's like you never read anything I said.
I'm not saying you identify as a collectivist. Like now, you disavow that view, but all the things you are for socially are anti-individualist and the very things collectivists promote, like interfering in other individual's lives.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:28 pm So, the idea is simply that will/volition can dynamically bias possibilities so that we start out with whatever (usually) non-equiprobable initial percentages ....
I think you are confusing probability, and perhaps statistics as well, as having some kind of efficient or efficatious power. Neither probability or statistics has any affect on anything. Both are only ways of identifying what can be true when one's specific information or data is limited. Neither probability or statistics has any affect on any real life actual states or events.

If by "bias possibility," you actually mean, "bias probability," even if it were possible, it only means you change the degree of likelihood in terms of your data, (by gathering more data, perhaps). It would have no affect on what actually happens.

If you can imagine a single possible case of how the probability of any event could be changed without any concommitent physical change in anything else, you might provide that example, if you care to.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:42 pm
So I guess that's okay. We move on. Nothing new to see here, obviously.
You can't or won't really read...
I'm really reading. And I'm very good at reading. I'm seeing no explanation at all of how a Materialist or Physicalist can rationalize being a Non-Determinist.

If I've missed it, feel free to answer right now. You have my attention.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:04 am ...all the things you are for socially are anti-individualist...
Heh. :D

What I believe in is the opposite of collectivism. Collectivists think the "collective" (usually the government, actually) will make all our lives better, is responsible for charity, can dictate morality, and deserves first allegiance. I think the individual is the one who takes care of himself, his family, his friends and his community, and that the collective never made anyone's life better...and has no particular interest in doing so.

An individualist does not have to hate other people, be a hermit, eschew charity, or abandon what's good for his/her community or nation. In fact, if any of those sorts of goods are going to happen at all, they're going to come at the initiative of individuals.

I hold no hope for the collective. None at all. A "collective" is a beast with a multitude of bodies but no brains, no morals and no mercy. Has not the last century abundantly taught us all that?

However, caring for others is not "collectivist." Collectivism is when you delude yourself that the thoughtless masses will somehow be induced to care for you, rather than the individual. They never will. But the individual may do much social good.
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