It is impossible to have an illusion of choice as that illusion would require deception and deception is a choice between truth an falsity.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:10 pmIf a choice is possible, determinism doesn't obtain, because determinism means that ALL phenomena are deterministic; hence choices aren't possible under determinism (only the illusion of a choice would be possible).Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:07 pmYou did not read the beginning post then.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:41 pm "Determinism" is the view that all phenomena are determined.
"Freedom" (and "free will" as a subset of it) is the view that there are at least some phenomena that are not determined.
Those two positions are mutually exclusive. If you think that all phenomena are determined, then it can't be the case that some phenomena are free.
If you think that at least some phenomena are free, then you can't think that all phenomena are determined.
If a choice is made then a cause and effect chain is built upon that chain thus necessitating determinism stemming from free will.
Dually if everything is determined then this conversation and observation of free will is determined therefore making it determined free will is observed hence exists.
Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
- Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Then it would be impossible for determinism to obtain.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:18 pmIt is impossible to have an illusion of choice as that illusion would require deception and deception is a choice between truth an falsity.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:10 pmIf a choice is possible, determinism doesn't obtain, because determinism means that ALL phenomena are deterministic; hence choices aren't possible under determinism (only the illusion of a choice would be possible).Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:07 pm
You did not read the beginning post then.
If a choice is made then a cause and effect chain is built upon that chain thus necessitating determinism stemming from free will.
Dually if everything is determined then this conversation and observation of free will is determined therefore making it determined free will is observed hence exists.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
To obtain what exactly?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:47 pmThen it would be impossible for determinism to obtain.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:18 pmIt is impossible to have an illusion of choice as that illusion would require deception and deception is a choice between truth an falsity.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:10 pm
If a choice is possible, determinism doesn't obtain, because determinism means that ALL phenomena are deterministic; hence choices aren't possible under determinism (only the illusion of a choice would be possible).
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
No, no...we "see" what you're trying to say: it's just unfortunately confused. It's just wrong.
That you fail, or choose to fail, to distinguish between the really-existing and the only imaginary has to be a puzzle to us all. But there's no next step, if that's where you are.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
lol--"obtain" is another way of saying "to exist" or "to be instantiated."Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:19 pmTo obtain what exactly?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:47 pmThen it would be impossible for determinism to obtain.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
All exists as part of the mind and as part of the mind, whether empirically or abstractly observed, still necessitates that if something is observed then there is a least a degree of existence to it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:28 pmNo, no...we "see" what you're trying to say: it's just unfortunately confused. It's just wrong.
That you fail, or choose to fail, to distinguish between the really-existing and the only imaginary has to be a puzzle to us all. But there's no next step, if that's where you are.
Tell me how you differentiate between real and imaginary.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Yet determinism is necessary for free will to exist given one cannot make a choice without effects resulting from it.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:34 pmlol--"obtain" is another way of saying "to exist" or "to be instantiated."Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:19 pmTo obtain what exactly?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:47 pm
Then it would be impossible for determinism to obtain.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Actually it will help you push through the pain and maintain a clearer mind to receive help. This is much like an athlete ignoring the pain to reach a higher state of athleticism.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:43 pmNope.
If you're shot, you'll be in agony, and maybe die. Your "imagining" you weren't shot won't help you.
Dually being shot in turn affects the mind where the mind forms an image of you being shot through thought and memory thus allowing you to know you were shot. We know reality through the interpretation of the senses under the mind. Without mind there is nothing to interpret to sensations thus rendering them meaningless.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Yes, well...why don't you try it? See how that works for you.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:54 pmActually it will help you push through the pain and maintain a clearer mind to receive help.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:43 pmNope.
If you're shot, you'll be in agony, and maybe die. Your "imagining" you weren't shot won't help you.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Athletes already push through the pain by forming images, ie meditation, through it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:00 pmYes, well...why don't you try it? See how that works for you.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:54 pmActually it will help you push through the pain and maintain a clearer mind to receive help.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:43 pm
Nope.
If you're shot, you'll be in agony, and maybe die. Your "imagining" you weren't shot won't help you.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Yes, well...nail your hand to the floor, then pretend you haven't and just walk away, and see how it works for you. Then you'll understand the difference between reality and imagination, I guarantee you.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
It's as if you didn't read my earlier posts.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:36 pmYet determinism is necessary for free will to exist given one cannot make a choice without effects resulting from it.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:34 pmlol--"obtain" is another way of saying "to exist" or "to be instantiated."
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Look at the mentally ill person tormented by thoughts and say the thoughts don't exist because they do.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:19 pmYes, well...nail your hand to the floor, then pretend you haven't and just walk away, and see how it works for you. Then you'll understand the difference between reality and imagination, I guarantee you.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
And what was so valuable about your earlier posts?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:27 pmIt's as if you didn't read my earlier posts.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:36 pmYet determinism is necessary for free will to exist given one cannot make a choice without effects resulting from it.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:34 pm
lol--"obtain" is another way of saying "to exist" or "to be instantiated."