Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

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RCSaunders
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:17 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:14 pm There is nothing ontological about such classifications (no mystical Platonic essences),
I don't want to keep typing and typing with us getting nowhere.
Me either, especially when I've already answered your question.
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:17 pm The classifications exist, don't they? Otherwise, how are there the classifications in the first place?
They do not, "exist," anymore than history, or science, or literature, or language, or any other invention of human minds exists. As I wrote:
Many existents have attributes similar to other existents, and it is epistemologically practical to identify all such existents as categories or classes of existents (universals). There is nothing ontological about such classifications.
Just as there was no such thing as the Greek language or mathematics until human beings created them, there are no classes, categories, or universals, until human beings invent them.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:25 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:10 pm "Logically" is the problem. It isn't logical to believe in dynamics that are not "real." That's irrational behaviour.
Let's clear up one thing at a time so that we don't have to keep repeating stuff and typing so much.

Dynamics, or things changing/being in motion, is different than governing dynamics, different than physical laws, and different from the claim that from an antecedent state, only one possible consequent state can obtain, no?

Let's straighten that out first.
Drop the word "governing." It was an adjective, not the noun. The noun is the main thing.

So, Poof! 💥 It's gone.

Now, tell me how we can have dynamics that are not "physical," and still be "Physicalists."

Fire away.
A rejection of physical laws and a rejection of determinism isn't a claim that nothing changes or that nothing is in motion.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:41 pm A rejection of physical laws and a rejection of determinism isn't a claim that nothing changes or that nothing is in motion.
Then it is a claim of...what force existing?

What causes things to be in motion or change, as per Physicalism?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:41 pm A rejection of physical laws and a rejection of determinism isn't a claim that nothing changes or that nothing is in motion.
Then it is a claim of...what force existing?

What causes things to be in motion or change, as per Physicalism?
Do you or do you not understand that physicalism is NOT a stance on what causes particular phenomena to occur as it does? Physicalism is ONLY a stance that answers "What sorts of things exist?" Or "What is the substantial nature of existence?"
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:41 pm A rejection of physical laws and a rejection of determinism isn't a claim that nothing changes or that nothing is in motion.
Then it is a claim of...what force existing?

What causes things to be in motion or change, as per Physicalism?
Do you or do you not understand that physicalism is NOT....
No, don't tell me what it's "not." Tell me what it "is."

Tell me how a Physicalist characterizes the forces that produce change and motion: are they "physical," or what?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by RCSaunders »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:41 pm A rejection of physical laws and a rejection of determinism isn't a claim that nothing changes or that nothing is in motion.
What, exactly does, "physical," mean?

Is there anything that isn't physical?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm
Then it is a claim of...what force existing?

What causes things to be in motion or change, as per Physicalism?
Do you or do you not understand that physicalism is NOT....
No, don't tell me what it's "not." Tell me what it "is."

Tell me how a Physicalist characterizes the forces that produce change and motion: are they "physical," or what?
I told you what physicalism is. It's the view that only physical things exist. That's it.

IF a physicalist has forces that produce change and motion in their ontology, then those forces are physical.

Physicalism isn't a commitment to any particular existents. It's ONLY a commitment that all existents in one's ontology are physical (or as I explained a number of times prior in this thread at least supervene on physical things).
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:17 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:44 pm
What, exactly does, "physical," mean?

Is there anything that isn't physical?
On my brand of physicalism, everything is ((dynamic) relations of) matter. In other words, there's matter, matter is oriented to other matter in relations, and those relations are dynamic.

And no, there's nothing that's not physical on my view. (Otherwise, I wouldn't count as a physicalist.)
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Do you or do you not understand that physicalism is NOT....
No, don't tell me what it's "not." Tell me what it "is."

Tell me how a Physicalist characterizes the forces that produce change and motion: are they "physical," or what?
I told you what physicalism is. It's the view that only physical things exist. That's it.
Yes, so then you have to believe that, as you say...
...those forces are physical.
So they're real, and they're "physical." So both the materials and dynamics are merely physical, meaning that the dynamics are impersonal and inevitable as well.

I'm waiting for the new or surprising bit, the thing that makes this not Deterministic. At the moment, that's all it can be.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm
No, don't tell me what it's "not." Tell me what it "is."

Tell me how a Physicalist characterizes the forces that produce change and motion: are they "physical," or what?
I told you what physicalism is. It's the view that only physical things exist. That's it.
Yes, so then you have to believe that, as you say...
...those forces are physical.
So they're real, and they're "physical." So both the materials and dynamics are merely physical, meaning that the dynamics are impersonal and inevitable as well.

I'm waiting for the new or surprising bit, the thing that makes this not Deterministic. At the moment, that's all it can be.
First, what happened to the conditional? I even put the conditional in bold and italics so that you wouldn't overlook it.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:03 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 am Determinism may be false but the fact that some things are determined exists.
Again, you don't know the difference between "determined" (i.e. "cause and effect) and Determinism. But Stanford does. And so does any proper definition.

Oxford: "The doctrine that every event has a cause. The usual explanation of this is that for every event, there is some antecedent state, related in such a way that it would break a law of nature for this antecedent state to exist yet the event not to happen."

Cambridge: "the theory that everything that happens must happen as it does and could not have happened any other way."

Webster: "a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws"

And on, and on, and on. Every source points out that Determinism is an absolute doctrine.
You didn't read what I wrote. It may be false that all phenomenon are determined but it does not negate that some are determined.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:40 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:29 pm
Age wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:08 am

Those, which are given by 'you', human beings.

And, did you really want, or expect, me to look in EVERY dictionary, in EVERY different language, for ALL the other definitions?

I suggest if you REALLY want to know the other definitions for the word 'proof', then you look for them "yourself".



How does the word 'dually' apply here accurately?

If there is multiple definitions for words, as there OBVIOUSLY IS, then this in NO WAY infers NOR means what you PRESUME the answer is here.

How one does establish truth is just by agreement and acceptance. It REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE and EASY. just like Life, Itself, IS.

And, just so you are FULLY AWARE I, sometimes, do write in a way to separate those who are CURIOS from those who just make ASSUMPTIONS instead.
If truth is determined by agreement an acceptance then multiple groups of agreement means multiple truths on one hand,
Yes very true, but there is ONLY one Truth.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:29 pm in another hand it means someone must agree with you to be right.
This is untrue and NOT right at all.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:29 pm Third it necessitates truth as existing in parts if truth is determined by agreement of various individuals.
And, what would happen if EVERY one agrees on and accepts one thing?

Could that then be thee one and ONLY, or ACTUAL, Truth of things?
It is a truth that not everyone agrees on a specific thing yet this truth is singular. The one exists through the many.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

bahman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:56 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:47 pm 1. Free will requires a deterministic order for the changes to result from a decision.

2. Determinism requires free will to exist given it is determined that free will is discussed.

3. Free will and determinism coexist.
No, you are mixing things. An agent is made of mind and body. The body is deterministic, the mind is free. We can do things by our bodies because our bodies are sometimes in an undecided situation, the moment that mind can intervene.
If the body is deterministic and the mind is not, and the mind and body coexist the things which are determined coexist which things which are not determined (ie free will).
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Immanuel Can »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:27 pm

I told you what physicalism is. It's the view that only physical things exist. That's it.
Yes, so then you have to believe that, as you say...
...those forces are physical.
So they're real, and they're "physical." So both the materials and dynamics are merely physical, meaning that the dynamics are impersonal and inevitable as well.

I'm waiting for the new or surprising bit, the thing that makes this not Deterministic. At the moment, that's all it can be.
First, what happened to the conditional? I even put the conditional in bold and italics so that you wouldn't overlook it.
Well, it seems to me that the conditional was pointless.

We know that the world moves and changes; you've even said so yourself. So what's the force that does that? Is it physical? As you say, the answer has to be yes, for the Physicalist.

"IF" the Physicalist denies that things move and change, we both know that's poppycock. We can observe that they do. You've even declared they do.

So that's that.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother

Post by Terrapin Station »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:35 pm Well, it seems to me that the conditional was pointless.
Yeah, that would only be the case if you're not getting this.
We know that the world moves and changes;
Not everyone agrees with that, and it's not at all part of what it amounts to to be a physicalist.

Again, what I'm attempting to explain to you has nothing to do with us agreeing with any stance.
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