Well, that you will have to prove to the Physicalists. Me, I find it uninteresting.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:27 pmThere is no true epiphenomenon.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 pm"Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events. Behavior is caused by muscles that contract upon receiving neural impulses, and neural impulses are generated by input from other neurons or from sense organs. On the epiphenomenalist view, mental events play no causal role in this process." (Stanford)
I guess your Google is broken.
Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
You failed to answer the other questions thus are diverting the point.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:45 pmI"ve already answered that.
If you can't see it, then you can't see it. It's still there.
Free will and determinism are intermingled.
All phenomenon as caused by another phenomenon reduce to a first cause which is uncaused thus resulting in all expressions of being as being free.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Then why bother talking about epiphenomena?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:47 pmWell, that you will have to prove to the Physicalists. Me, I find it uninteresting.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:27 pmThere is no true epiphenomenon.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 pm
"Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events. Behavior is caused by muscles that contract upon receiving neural impulses, and neural impulses are generated by input from other neurons or from sense organs. On the epiphenomenalist view, mental events play no causal role in this process." (Stanford)
I guess your Google is broken.
Thought results in thought. A thought is tied to neural impulses. Neural impulses result from one thought causing another thus a thought results in physical changes.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
That's only because I find them ridiculous.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:49 pmYou failed to answer the other questions...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:45 pmI"ve already answered that.
If you can't see it, then you can't see it. It's still there.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
That is because nothing lies behind the first cause. It is uncaused thus acausal.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:58 pmThat's only because I find them ridiculous.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:49 pmYou failed to answer the other questions...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:45 pm
I"ve already answered that.
If you can't see it, then you can't see it. It's still there.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
I already showed you this was a false dichotomy. You can go back and read that again, I guess.
You don't get it. I can see that.
I've tried. I can think of no simpler ways to put it for you.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
It is not a false dichotomy and you did not prove it as such. Acausality and causality both exist at the same time in different respects given the first cause is uncaused.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:50 pmI already showed you this was a false dichotomy. You can go back and read that again, I guess.
You don't get it. I can see that.
I've tried. I can think of no simpler ways to put it for you.
You don't get it. I can see that.
So let me put it in simpler terms....what is behind the first cause?
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Yeah, it is, and yeah, I did.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:21 amIt is not a false dichotomy and you did not prove it as such.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:50 pmI already showed you this was a false dichotomy. You can go back and read that again, I guess.
You don't get it. I can see that.
I've tried. I can think of no simpler ways to put it for you.
I can show it to you, and I did; but I can't understand it for you.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
False, absence of cause and cause form a dualism synonymous with the standard positive and negative values in a truth statement. You proved nothing other than a misapplication of what consists of a fallacy. Rather you are making assertions and mistaking them as proofs. If no cause is behind the first cause then acausality is the result.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:32 amYeah, it is, and yeah, I did.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:21 amIt is not a false dichotomy and you did not prove it as such.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:50 pm
I already showed you this was a false dichotomy. You can go back and read that again, I guess.
You don't get it. I can see that.
I've tried. I can think of no simpler ways to put it for you.
I can show it to you, and I did; but I can't understand it for you.
It cannot be eternity as eternity would be the first cause for other phenomenon and nothing causes eternity. To say eternity is what lies behind everything is to say all things which comes from what is eternal are extensions of said eternal reality as effects of it. Eternity is thus a first cause....but eternity is a condition defining an absence of time, or infinite time, thus is not a thing in itself thus not a first cause.
You are also ignoring the question "what is behind the first cause?"
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
What is behind the first cause? You keep ignoring this simple question.
You cannot say eternity because this is a condition, this condition is a facet of being and as a facet of being is part of the cause/effect chain given it is part of the continuity of changes.. To say eternity lies behind being is to say it is a cause of being through the continuity of being. This continuity of being is it's own cause with nothing lying behind it thus is uncaused. Continuity is being as its own cause with nothing behind it....it is an uncaused cause.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Oy vey.
I answered this looooong ago.
The answer is three letters long. Go find it.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
No. Repeat it. All arguments are the same thing expressed in a multitude of ways.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:22 amOy vey.
I answered this looooong ago.
The answer is three letters long. Go find it.
Nothing is behind the first cause because if another cause is behind it then it is not the first cause. If nothing is behind the first cause then it is uncaused. The supreme cause is uncaused thus acausality is proven.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
No, refute this:
"Nothing is behind the first cause because if another cause is behind it then it is not the first cause. If nothing is behind the first cause then it is uncaused. The supreme cause is uncaused thus acausality is proven."
This uncaused cause is free given it diverges to all possible outcomes through the actualization of said phenomenon...in simpler terms what is possible is actualized with all possibilities being actualized thus free.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.