Complete determinism being negated still does not negate certain actions are indeed determined. A leads to B leads to C does not negated what leads to A may in fact be undetermined.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:22 pmNot at all. Just because one thing is one way, it doesn't mean that everything else is the same way.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:47 pm But now we have to substitute, "Everything is determined by quantum events."
The point is simply that "determinism is the case" is false. Determinism being the doctrine that every single thing is determined so that there's really only one consequent possibility from any antecedent state.
If determinism is false, then we can't fall back on determinism to argue that there's no free will, that materialism/physicalism suggest there's no free will, etc. We have to accept that determinism is false and something else is the case when it comes to at least some phenomena--that at least some phenomena are not determined. (Then it's a matter of figuring out what phenomena are not determined, how those phenomena work instead, etc.)
Again, no. Determinism is the view that for all phenomena, from any antecedent state, the world is such that via causality, there's really only one possible consequent state. It turns out (at least as best as we can tell at the moment, and this is the standard view in the sciences), that that's not the case.We still have Determinism.
Again, the first step--and this should sound like we're talking about the 12-step program for alcoholism, haha--is to admit that determinism isn't the case, and science suggests no such thing. We need to conquer that first step, and then we can move on to the next steps.I think that's the point the speaker in the video is drawing out: the quantum explanation does not solve the problem.
Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
You'll have to explain that. The way I understand them, both Materialism and quantum theory are supposed to be explanations of basic principles governing the very physics of the universe and everything in it, rather than optional phenomena.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:22 pmNot at all. Just because one thing is one way, it doesn't mean that everything else is the same way.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:47 pm But now we have to substitute, "Everything is determined by quantum events."
But as the video points out, punting to quantum theory doesn't justify that "determinism...is false." It just argues that a different kind of agency predetermines everything, but Determinism is still true.The point is simply that "determinism is the case" is false.
Quantum theory makes it harder for us to say exactly what prior forces predetermine everything...it doesn't open up space for things like human choice, unless you have some kind of explanation I've never heard.
Think of it this way. If I walk into a casino, and I understand all the Material forces in play, then IN THEORY, (though never in practice, of course) were I the brightest and best-informed scientist possible, I should be able to know all the numbers that will turn up on the card table and win every hand. That's Materialist Determinism. But am I better or worse if I walk into a casino and have to admit that I have, and can have, no idea of what variables will produce the numbers?
In other words, my confusion isn't an improvement on a Deterministic system -- far less a disproof of the same. It may well be that only certain numbers are fated to turn up...but now I'm in no position at all to be at an advantage relative to that. I'm still predetermined, possibly; but I'm less in control than ever.
How is that better? That's the question the video raises, I think.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
If there is one situation in the entire universe that is not determined, then by definition, Determinism is no longer true. I'm afraid you just don't know what Determinism actually says. Terrapin Station does, I think: but you think it's optional.
It's not. It's either the comprehensive explanation of how things work, or it's a failure on its own terms. One counter case defeats Determinism.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
It is not an either/or scenario...this is a false dichotomy as determinism is an interpretation of events and as an interpretation exists through further grades of this interpretation given interpretations result in further interpretations thus grades.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:30 pmIf there is one situation in the entire universe that is not determined, then by definition, Determinism is no longer true. I'm afraid you just don't know what Determinism actually says. Terrapin Station does, I think: but you think it's optional.
It's not. It's either the comprehensive explanation of how things work, or it's a failure on its own terms. One counter case defeats Determinism.
Partial determinism can occur. It may not be the case that I touch a hot stove but if I do then I am burned. Now whether or not me touching the stove may not be determined what results if I do touch it is determined.
The negation of determinism, as in all things are determined, does not negate that some things are determined. We know some things are determined because the cause and effect repeat.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Yeah, actually...it is. If you knew what Determinism is, you'd know it is.
You won't find a single person anywhere arguing that NOTHING is determined. And there isn't a single actual Determinist who argues ANYTHING isn't predetermined.
You've just completely misunderstood what Determinism means. Sorry.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
So it is not determined that if one touches a hot stove for x amount of time they will get burned? This act of touching a hot stove, as an act of free will, may not be determined however. Thus one act of indeterminacy results in a determined act.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:37 pmYeah, actually...it is. If you knew what Determinism is, you'd know it is.
You won't find a single person anywhere arguing that NOTHING is determined. And there isn't a single actual Determinist who argues ANYTHING isn't predetermined.
You've just completely misunderstood what Determinism means. Sorry.
Things being determined coexist with free will, one cannot exist without the other. Some things being determined may negate determinism but it does not negate that some things are determined.
- henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
I'm confused. You equate freedom of movement with free will? Or are you sayin' motion is necessary for free will? Can you give me a definition for free will? Havin' a definition might clear up my confusion.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pmFreedom occurs through being.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:49 pmI'm not sure what being instead of not-being has to do with it.
An amoeba exists but I wouldn't say it's free or free willed.
Non being is an absence of freedom as it is nothing, not even being.
All being in contrast to Nothingness is free as freedom exists as part of this being. It exists as part of this being given the totality of being, in contrast to nothing, contains within it an element of freedom.
This element of freedom is the ability to move, an absence of being is an absence of the ability to move thus is absent of freedom.
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ignore this premature, and now deleted, post...enjoy a picture instead...
Last edited by henry quirk on Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
I've always taken quantum and stochastic whatsis to mean one can't predict an outcome, not that the outcome is undetermined.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:33 pmI'm not sure why it's so common to think that materialism or physicalism implies determinism. Are they teaching folks this in school or something? If so, they're skipping telling you about phenomena that are standardly thought to be (ontologically) indeterminstic--namely quantum and stochastic phenomena.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:22 pmOkay, now I'm super-interested.
How the heck do you manage that, TS? Seems to me, at least at first glance, that Materialism automatically implies Determinism.
Can there be another way?
But even aside from the standard view, one need not be a realist on physical laws in general in order to be a materialist or physicalist.
Am I wrong?
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Of course. But that's not a correct understanding of the term "Determinism." You think you know what it means, but clearly, you don't.
Here's a short definition:
Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law. (Stanford)
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Free will is the manifestation of movements through the "I".henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:08 amI'm confused. You equate freedom of movement with free will? Or are you sayin' motion is necessary for free will? Can you give me a definition for free will? Havin' a definition might clear up my confusion.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pmFreedom occurs through being.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:49 pm
I'm not sure what being instead of not-being has to do with it.
An amoeba exists but I wouldn't say it's free or free willed.
Non being is an absence of freedom as it is nothing, not even being.
All being in contrast to Nothingness is free as freedom exists as part of this being. It exists as part of this being given the totality of being, in contrast to nothing, contains within it an element of freedom.
This element of freedom is the ability to move, an absence of being is an absence of the ability to move thus is absent of freedom.
Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
"Under the sway of" necessitates determinism as an influence and as an influence exists as part of reality but not the totality of.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:37 amOf course. But that's not a correct understanding of the term "Determinism." You think you know what it means, but clearly, you don't.
Here's a short definition:
Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law. (Stanford)
What you are failing to grasp is that some things are determined still necessitates that some things are determined.
Third determinism exists through all being as a replication of actions. Even under free will all being reflects into further being as the cause (free will) results in an effect. One act of free will changes into another act of free will thus necessitating free will as a cause being free will as an effect.
- henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
Hey, brother, count me in. *Causal determinism is for the birds (that's what you're sayin', yeah?).Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:24 pmSo, the first thing he's missing is this:Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:56 pmWell, that's interesting.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:33 pm ...phenomena that are standardly thought to be (ontologically) indeterminstic--namely quantum and stochastic phenomena.
Now, here is my question about that. I can claim no great originality, but this seems to me to be the right response. (The video is only 3 min. or so long.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4arOKZvuZK4
"Random swerving in a chaotic system," he says.
So how would you respond to that?
If it's a fact that quantum phenomena are not deterministic, then "Determinism is the case/everything is determined by physical laws" is false, and we can't use "determinism is the case/everything is determined by physical laws" either as an argument against free will or as a general world view (even outside of the context of free will discussions).
We can move to how free will might work later, but the first thing to realize here is that science does NOT in fact suggest that determinism is true. So we should stop pretending that it does suggest that.
That's step one.
Step one: done.
Let's get to how free will might work in this undetermined world (which, to my mind, means random).
*cause & effect is a pain and I'm glad to be done with it...with C & E gone I can smoke my cigarette without strikin' a match, have a hot cuppa joe without brewin' it, have cash in my pocket without workin' for it (or stealin' it)
as I say: count me in, brother!
- henry quirk
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
*This is news to me. Determinism, cause & effect, I've always thought of as, to borrow your example, I'm gonna touch that hot stove (or not) cuz that's how the dominos line up, not becuz of any choice I make. More accurately: my choice is a fiction and I'm gonna get burned (or not) entirely becuz of precedin' events (unbroken causal chains stretchin' back to the beginning of time and space). My interpretation of events, in determinism as I understand it, are irrelevant and fictional too.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:35 pmIt is not an either/or scenario...*this is a false dichotomy as determinism is an interpretation of events and as an interpretation exists through further grades of this interpretation given interpretations result in further interpretations thus grades.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:30 pmIf there is one situation in the entire universe that is not determined, then by definition, Determinism is no longer true. I'm afraid you just don't know what Determinism actually says. Terrapin Station does, I think: but you think it's optional.
It's not. It's either the comprehensive explanation of how things work, or it's a failure on its own terms. One counter case defeats Determinism.
Partial determinism can occur. It may not be the case that I touch a hot stove but if I do then I am burned. Now whether or not me touching the stove may not be determined what results if I do touch it is determined.
The negation of determinism, as in all things are determined, does not negate that some things are determined. We know some things are determined because the cause and effect repeat.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Free Will and Determinism Necessitate Eachother
If it's just "some things," then by definition, Determinism is false.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:47 amWhat you are failing to grasp is that some things are determined still necessitates that some things are determined.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:37 amOf course. But that's not a correct understanding of the term "Determinism." You think you know what it means, but clearly, you don't.
Here's a short definition:
Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law. (Stanford)
For Determinism, it has to be ALL things, and ALWAYS.