Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

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Veritas Aequitas
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Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Here is food for thought re Dewey accepted the realists' view at face value but rejected at the fundamental level.

From:

"Quote"
Beyond Realism and Anti-realism: John Dewey and the Neo-pragmatists
by David L. Hildebrand
Chapter 1

The New realists’ insistence upon the independence of existences was something that Dewey could accept only at a very general level, and he felt bound to reject important corollaries of the realist view.
For example, their [realists’] doctrine of external relations held that,
given the proposition aRb, it could not be claimed that aR in any degree constitutes b, that Rb constitutes a, or that R constitute either a or b.39
This view enabled New realists to guarantee the integrity of each individual object, protecting it from the slippery slope leading to absolute idealism.
It affirmed that
“[t]he proposition ‘This or that object is known,’ does not imply that such object is conditioned by the knowing.”40

To begin with, Dewey objected that this doctrine is ambiguous in designation.

What remains unaffected by the relations in the proposition aRb, the logical content of the terms or the existences to which the terms refer?
The stronger implication would be in regard to existences, for it supports the realist tenet that existences are neither produced nor altered by knowing.
Dewey objects to the implication of the external relations doctrine because it isolates knowing—which the realists themselves claimed “belongs to the same world as that of its objects”—from the thing known.

Dewey writes,
  • .. the theory means that the existence known does not change in being referred to by a proposition.
    This truth is undoubtedly axiomatic in the sense that we cannot swap horses in midstream. . . .
    This truth is, however, quite compatible . . . with a change of meaning in the existence referred to, because it has become a subject of knowing.
    It is, moreover, consistent with alteration of the existence itself through knowing, as well as with the doctrine that the purpose of knowing is to effect some alteration.
    Any other conception implies that any change is fatal to the identity of a thing.
    And I do not take it that the realists wish to commit us irretrievably to Eleaticism. (MW 6:140, emphasis mine)
When active inquiry requires that we consider, as data, an existence (say, a car), our construction of a proposition that refers to it does not immediately alter its existential qualities—the car still has four wheels, can hold passengers, etc.
But in a functional sense, the car has changed insofar as it has become an integral part of a larger inquiry;
it has become the subject matter for a new inquiry in addition to being the finished achievement of a previous inquiry.

The present inquiry may conclude that cars produce noxious fumes.
Such a result will reconstruct the overall meaning of “car” for us, in the process changing its identity not only as an item of language (affecting all its lexicographical ties) but as an existence in our lives.
That it has changed existentially can be seen by our newfound reluctance to park the baby’s carriage next to the smoking exhaust pipe.

Dewey’s point is that if knowing is conceived as a natural process, then the result of that process—a change of the meaning of the existence inquired into—is a change in that existence:
  • “If we take knowing as one existence, one event in relation to other events, what happens to existences when a knowing event supervenes, is a matter of bare, brute fact” (MW 6:141).
There is no good reason for the New realist to suspect that this view entails the probability that reality will be radically or whimsically reconstructed, i.e., that it is subjectivistic.

Dewey is merely stating that the mutual modification of meanings and objects is a feature of stable, mundane experience.
Such changes need not alter the identity of the existence any more than a plant’s growth challenges its identity as a plant.

If meaning is classifiable as a distinct kind of existence, it is only such given certain purposes of inquiry, not ab extra.
The same holds true for “mind” and “body.”

Such facts about relations exhibit themselves in experience:
  • Dynamic connections are qualitatively diverse, just as are the centers of action.
    In this sense, pluralism, not monism, is an established empirical fact.
    The attempt to establish monism from consideration of the very nature of a relation is a mere piece of dialectics. . . .
    To attempt to get results from a consideration of the “external” nature of relations is of a piece with the attempt to deduce results from their “internal” character. . . .
    Experience exhibits every kind of connection from the most intimate to mere external juxtaposition. (MW 10:11–12)
Dewey’s view rejects the external relations doctrine without thereby embracing the idealist doctrine of internal relations.
At the same time, he has offered an important clue as to how logic could be reenvisioned: logic is to be the study of knowing as an ongoing process rather than of knowledge as a fixed achievement.

"Unquote"
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sat May 22, 2021 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Views?

The example of "the car" and "plant" are very interesting.
There are a lot of subtleties involved which the typical realists here will find it difficult to fathom.

While the author above believe the above is non-idealistic, I believe ultimately it is anti-realism whatever which way.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Terrapin Station »

It would be worth going over all of the confusions in Dewey's comments, but only with someone who can systematically tackle them one at a time, where points and questions are directly addressed, etc. You've proven yourself to be either incapable or uncooperative for that, unfortunately.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Terrapin Station »

Just in general, though, one of the primary confusions Dewey is making here is that he seems to believe that somehow meaning is "in" external objects, so that if meaning changes, it changes the external object.

But there is no meaning in external objects. Meaning is a subjective phenomenon. It's influenced by external objects (as well as other people, of course), but it can't literally obtain in external objects.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 1:33 pm Just in general, though, one of the primary confusions Dewey is making here is that he seems to believe that somehow meaning is "in" external objects, so that if meaning changes, it changes the external object.

But there is no meaning in external objects. Meaning is a subjective phenomenon. It's influenced by external objects (as well as other people, of course), but it can't literally obtain in external objects.
As usual you are the one who is having the comprehension problem because you are stuck in you dogmatic paradigm.

The author stated Dewey accept the realists' view of externality at face value but reject it at a higher level of philosophical consideration. What Dewey rejected is the dogmatic 'my way or the highway' position of the realists.
The New realists’ insistence upon the independence of existences was something that Dewey could accept only at a very general level, and he felt bound to reject important corollaries of the realist view.
Surely Dewey as with anyone will agree with the realists common sense view but Dewey dug deeper from the realists' dogmatic stance and stated;
When active inquiry requires that we consider, as data, an existence (say, a car), our construction of a proposition that refers to it does not immediately alter its existential qualities—the car still has four wheels, can hold passengers, etc.

But in a functional sense, the car has changed insofar as it has become an integral part of a larger inquiry;
it has become the subject matter for a new inquiry in addition to being the finished achievement of a previous inquiry.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Dewey's Rejection of the Realists' View

Post by Terrapin Station »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:00 am
But in a functional sense, the car has changed insofar as it has become an integral part of a larger inquiry;
it has become the subject matter for a new inquiry in addition to being the finished achievement of a previous inquiry.
Which in itself, doesn't at all change the car. "It has become subject matter" isn't a property of the car qua the car. Dewey is extremely confused there.
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