An argument against materialism

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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by bahman »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am How such a transaction is initiated? Who or what does initiate it?
Didn't I just tell you? I desire the experience of moving my hand and my muscles respond to the signals sent by my central nervous system.
Is desire also a by-product of the matter process?
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am What is thought from the materialistic point of view?
Thought is a brain process, the physical activity of the brain in conjunction with the rest of the central nervous system, just as digestion is the physical activity of the digestive system.
So I can say that thoughts are the result of the matter process which latter is based on the laws of physics.
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am So? All parts of your body follow the laws of nature. Even electron within your brain. Thought is the by-product of the matter process. How thought can possibly get involved in moving the body.
Thought is a process of a biological organism, it is not the process of a dead rocks. So it is more accurate to say that it is a by-product of organic processes, which are necessarily related to material substance. Organisms move their bodies, and so can do sentient organisms that have functional capacities to process information to regulate their behavior.
I know that you can move. I am asking how your thought can intervene when your body and even the electrons of your brain follow the laws of physics.
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am You don't even know the exact point related to the motion of your fingers in your brain.
Actually, that´s not true. We have a pretty good idea of the zones in the brain involved in fingers moving.
Yes, we know the locations in the brain after studying it. But even after studying, we don't directly stimulate those locations in order to move when we have the desire to move.
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am How could get involved in a conscious activity like moving your fingers when their motion started from different locations of your brain.
Who cares if we didn't know. We know it happens in the brain. No brain, no central nervous system, no consciousness.
I care. It is very important. There are two things, the motion of your fingers and the desire to move them properly. There is a gap in here since to move your finger you need to stimulate a specific part of your brain. You don't do that, do you?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

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bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am Is desire also a by-product of the matter process?
In materialist ontology, everything is material, and the behavior of organic matter is explained by natural processes.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
bahman wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 am What is thought from the materialistic point of view?
Thought is a brain process, the physical activity of the brain in conjunction with the rest of the central nervous system, just as digestion is the physical activity of the digestive system.
So I can say that thoughts are the result of the matter process which latter is based on the laws of physics.
Thoughts are the result of the physical activity of the brain, a dead brain does not produce thoughts. They are the products of processes in organic matter that follow their own laws of biology, consistent with the laws of physics that govern all matter.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am I know that you can move. I am asking how your thought can intervene when your body and even the electrons of your brain follow the laws of physics.
Thoughts are an activity of my body, of my brain. My body, including my brain, is composed of electrons. It is not that it "has electrons" as an accessory or contingent property.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am Yes, we know the locations in the brain after studying it. But even after studying, we don't directly stimulate those locations in order to move when we have the desire to move.
It doesn't work as the touching of a button. There are complex anatomic systems and processes involved which determine the action before it happens and make it happen.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am I care. It is very important. There are two things, the motion of your fingers and the desire to move them properly. There is a gap in here since to move your finger you need to stimulate a specific part of your brain. You don't do that, do you?
You fail to show that there's something abnormal or lacking a natural explanation here. The CNS is stimulated to produce a movement in other parts of the body and the corresponding body systems targeted by neurotransmitters perform the action. There's no mystery in it.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:23 pm
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am Is desire also a by-product of the matter process?
In materialist ontology, everything is material, and the behavior of organic matter is explained by natural processes.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:10 am
Thought is a brain process, the physical activity of the brain in conjunction with the rest of the central nervous system, just as digestion is the physical activity of the digestive system.
So I can say that thoughts are the result of the matter process which latter is based on the laws of physics.
Thoughts are the result of the physical activity of the brain, a dead brain does not produce thoughts. They are the products of processes in organic matter that follow their own laws of biology, consistent with the laws of physics that govern all matter.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am I know that you can move. I am asking how your thought can intervene when your body and even the electrons of your brain follow the laws of physics.
Thoughts are an activity of my body, of my brain. My body, including my brain, is composed of electrons. It is not that it "has electrons" as an accessory or contingent property.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am Yes, we know the locations in the brain after studying it. But even after studying, we don't directly stimulate those locations in order to move when we have the desire to move.
It doesn't work as the touching of a button. There are complex anatomic systems and processes involved which determine the action before it happens and make it happen.
bahman wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:50 am I care. It is very important. There are two things, the motion of your fingers and the desire to move them properly. There is a gap in here since to move your finger you need to stimulate a specific part of your brain. You don't do that, do you?
You fail to show that there's something abnormal or lacking a natural explanation here. The CNS is stimulated to produce a movement in other parts of the body and the corresponding body systems targeted by neurotransmitters perform the action. There's no mystery in it.
Where is the location of your thoughts, I am talking about the place that you experience it.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:15 am
Where is the location of your thoughts, I am talking about the place that you experience it.
Of all the nonsensical questions you have made so far, this is the worst one. Are you serious?

Where is the location of your digestion?
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:06 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:15 am
Where is the location of your thoughts, I am talking about the place that you experience it.
Of all the nonsensical questions you have made so far, this is the worst one. Are you serious?

Where is the location of your digestion?
I mean can you know the location of your thought through introspection. How thought as a subjective thing can cause?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

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bahman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:08 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:06 am
bahman wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:15 am
Where is the location of your thoughts, I am talking about the place that you experience it.
Of all the nonsensical questions you have made so far, this is the worst one. Are you serious?

Where is the location of your digestion?
I mean can you know the location of your thought through introspection. How thought as a subjective thing can cause?
You keep talking about thought as a thing, in the same way someone would refer to digestion as a thing. Thought and digestion are processes of organic systems.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:04 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:08 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:06 am

Of all the nonsensical questions you have made so far, this is the worst one. Are you serious?

Where is the location of your digestion?
I mean can you know the location of your thought through introspection. How thought as a subjective thing can cause?
You keep talking about thought as a thing, in the same way someone would refer to digestion as a thing. Thought and digestion are processes of organic systems.
Let me ask you this question? If thought is not a thing then how it could affect reality?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:12 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:04 am
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:08 am
I mean can you know the location of your thought through introspection. How thought as a subjective thing can cause?
You keep talking about thought as a thing, in the same way someone would refer to digestion as a thing. Thought and digestion are processes of organic systems.
Let me ask you this question? If thought is not a thing then how it could affect reality?
Just the same as digestion, metabolism or motion are not "things", yet they are part of reality and having effects on it. They are processes carried out by concrete things.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:26 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:12 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:04 am
You keep talking about thought as a thing, in the same way someone would refer to digestion as a thing. Thought and digestion are processes of organic systems.
Let me ask you this question? If thought is not a thing then how it could affect reality?
Just the same as digestion, metabolism or motion are not "things", yet they are part of reality and having effects on it. They are processes carried out by concrete things.
You cannot have many processes working with each other because of conflict of interest.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:15 am
You cannot have many processes working with each other because of conflict of interest.
Are you drunk? :roll:
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Terrapin Station »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:15 am
You cannot have many processes working with each other because of conflict of interest.
Are you drunk? :roll:
That's just the way he is. He's an evergreen source of gems like that, and there's no getting him to see the light about any of it no matter what you do.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:15 am
You cannot have many processes working with each other because of conflict of interest.
Are you drunk? :roll:
When you move your hand, is that the laws of nature which enforce the motion or it is you, conscious thought.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:22 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:15 am
You cannot have many processes working with each other because of conflict of interest.
Are you drunk? :roll:
When you move your hand, is that the laws of nature which enforce the motion or it is you, conscious thought.
Why would the "laws of nature" operate independently of myself, a being immersed in the natural world?

Anyway, rather than answering this nonsensical questions over and over, I hope you better start producing some insightful arguments. I'm really getting bored, and believe me, I don't get bored so easily.
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bahman
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Re: An argument against materialism

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Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:06 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:22 am
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:22 pm

Are you drunk? :roll:
When you move your hand, is that the laws of nature which enforce the motion or it is you, conscious thought.
Why would the "laws of nature" operate independently of myself, a being immersed in the natural world?
I said thought is different from the laws of nature. Thought in fact is dependent on laws of nature within materialism. So my objection is valid. How something whose very existence depends on something else, such as the thought that depends on matter, can affect matter when matter's behavior is already decided, according to the laws of nature.
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:06 pm Anyway, rather than answering this nonsensical questions over and over, I hope you better start producing some insightful arguments. I'm really getting bored, and believe me, I don't get bored so easily.
Why not visit my other threads if you want to get rid of being bored?
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism

Post by Conde Lucanor »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:34 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:06 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:22 am
When you move your hand, is that the laws of nature which enforce the motion or it is you, conscious thought.
Why would the "laws of nature" operate independently of myself, a being immersed in the natural world?
I said thought is different from the laws of nature. Thought in fact is dependent on laws of nature within materialism. So my objection is valid. How something whose very existence depends on something else, such as the thought that depends on matter, can affect matter when matter's behavior is already decided, according to the laws of nature.
Your objection is not valid. It is the equivalent of this:

Digestion in fact is dependent on laws of nature within materialism. So my objection is valid. How something whose very existence depends on something else, such as the digestion that depends on matter, can affect matter when matter's behavior is already decided, according to the laws of nature.

You can change digestion for metabolism, hematogenesis, evolution, etc.
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