bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 9:02 pm
You are mixing things. There are two things: Thoughts in the minds of conscious agents and how matter behaves. Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not. Once there is an intelligent agent then the laws of physics could exist as thoughts in the mind of the agent.
It's either as if you're having problems writing things that match your thoughts or as if you have no short term memory.
You just wrote "The laws of physics only exist abstractly in the mind of an intelligent agent."
If that's the case, then it can't be the case that "Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not."
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 9:02 pm
You are mixing things. There are two things: Thoughts in the minds of conscious agents and how matter behaves. Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not. Once there is an intelligent agent then the laws of physics could exist as thoughts in the mind of the agent.
It's either as if you're having problems writing things that match your thoughts or as if you have no short term memory.
You just wrote "The laws of physics only exist abstractly in the mind of an intelligent agent."
If that's the case, then it can't be the case that "Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not."
The laws of physics do not exist in matter. The matter however behaves according to the laws of nature.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 9:02 pm
You are mixing things. There are two things: Thoughts in the minds of conscious agents and how matter behaves. Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not. Once there is an intelligent agent then the laws of physics could exist as thoughts in the mind of the agent.
It's either as if you're having problems writing things that match your thoughts or as if you have no short term memory.
You just wrote "The laws of physics only exist abstractly in the mind of an intelligent agent."
If that's the case, then it can't be the case that "Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not."
The laws of physics do not exist in matter. The matter however behaves according to the laws of nature.
. . . and this comment has jack$#!t to do with understanding my comment about your inconsistencies.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
I already discussed that. You cannot control the electrons in your brain. Therefore, your consciousness cannot affect reality. Therefore, consciousness is irrelevant.
Conscious process involves activities from the central nervous system, including the brain. These activities involve electrical synapsis, so electrons indeed are displaying behavior in relation to the conscious process. So the claim that conscious process does not affect matter can only be taken to mean that the outcome of mental activity can never be a change in the material structure of reality. It does not mean that material processes in the central nervous system are disentangled from cognized content. It is actually that entanglement that is material.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
Physical properties at the macroscopic level are not anything more than a function of microscopic properties. For example, the temperature is the average energy of atoms, pressure is the average force exerted to a surface, the same for solidity which is nothing more than shear tension.
Temperature, pressure, gaseous and other states, etc., are parameters affecting isolated substances differently than when they compose another substance. So the physical properties of hydrogen and oxygen atoms are not the same as the physical properties of the molecules of hydrogen and oxygen that form water. In other words, they are not reducible, as you claim.
It's either as if you're having problems writing things that match your thoughts or as if you have no short term memory.
You just wrote "The laws of physics only exist abstractly in the mind of an intelligent agent."
If that's the case, then it can't be the case that "Matter behaves according to the laws of physics regardless of whether there is an intelligent agent exists or not."
The laws of physics do not exist in matter. The matter however behaves according to the laws of nature.
. . . and this comment has jack$#!t to do with understanding my comment about your inconsistencies.
I am sayinjg two things. Matter behaves according to the laws of nature. And the laws of nature only exist in mind. What is wrong with what I am saying?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 12:17 am
The laws of physics do not exist in matter. The matter however behaves according to the laws of nature.
. . . and this comment has jack$#!t to do with understanding my comment about your inconsistencies.
I am sayinjg two things. Matter behaves according to the laws of nature. And the laws of nature only exist in mind. What is wrong with what I am saying?
If an intelligent agent does not exist, are there any minds?
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
I already discussed that. You cannot control the electrons in your brain. Therefore, your consciousness cannot affect reality. Therefore, consciousness is irrelevant.
Conscious process involves activities from the central nervous system, including the brain. These activities involve electrical synapsis, so electrons indeed are displaying behavior in relation to the conscious process. So the claim that conscious process does not affect matter can only be taken to mean that the outcome of mental activity can never be a change in the material structure of reality. It does not mean that material processes in the central nervous system are disentangled from cognized content.
It does mean.
Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It is actually that entanglement that is material.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
Physical properties at the macroscopic level are not anything more than a function of microscopic properties. For example, the temperature is the average energy of atoms, pressure is the average force exerted to a surface, the same for solidity which is nothing more than shear tension.
Temperature, pressure, gaseous and other states, etc., are parameters affecting isolated substances differently than when they compose another substance. So the physical properties of hydrogen and oxygen atoms are not the same as the physical properties of the molecules of hydrogen and oxygen that form water. In other words, they are not reducible, as you claim.
I already gave you the example and you are denying.
. . . and this comment has jack$#!t to do with understanding my comment about your inconsistencies.
I am sayinjg two things. Matter behaves according to the laws of nature. And the laws of nature only exist in mind. What is wrong with what I am saying?
If an intelligent agent does not exist, are there any minds?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 9:29 pm
I am sayinjg two things. Matter behaves according to the laws of nature. And the laws of nature only exist in mind. What is wrong with what I am saying?
If an intelligent agent does not exist, are there any minds?
No.
Right.
So imagine that no intelligent agent exists. No minds. For example, let's say that we're talking about 3.5 billion years ago. There were no people then.
According to you, physical laws are ONLY something in minds. But 3.5 million years ago, there are no minds.
So now, 3.5 million years ago, how does something like the sun obey laws of physics?
If an intelligent agent does not exist, are there any minds?
No.
Right.
So imagine that no intelligent agent exists. No minds. For example, let's say that we're talking about 3.5 billion years ago. There were no people then.
According to you, physical laws are ONLY something in minds. But 3.5 million years ago, there are no minds.
So now, 3.5 million years ago, how does something like the sun obey laws of physics?
Matter exists and behaves according to the laws of physics, whether there is me or not.
So imagine that no intelligent agent exists. No minds. For example, let's say that we're talking about 3.5 billion years ago. There were no people then.
According to you, physical laws are ONLY something in minds. But 3.5 million years ago, there are no minds.
So now, 3.5 million years ago, how does something like the sun obey laws of physics?
Matter exists and behaves according to the laws of physics, whether there is me or not.
I'm not asking about you personally, but people in general. How can matter behave according to the laws of physics 3.5 billion years ago IF the laws of physics are ONLY something in our minds?
So imagine that no intelligent agent exists. No minds. For example, let's say that we're talking about 3.5 billion years ago. There were no people then.
According to you, physical laws are ONLY something in minds. But 3.5 million years ago, there are no minds.
So now, 3.5 million years ago, how does something like the sun obey laws of physics?
Matter exists and behaves according to the laws of physics, whether there is me or not.
I'm not asking about you personally, but people in general. How can matter behave according to the laws of physics 3.5 billion years ago IF the laws of physics are ONLY something in our minds?
Matter does its job whether there is a mind or not.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:14 pm
Matter exists and behaves according to the laws of physics, whether there is me or not.
I'm not asking about you personally, but people in general. How can matter behave according to the laws of physics 3.5 billion years ago IF the laws of physics are ONLY something in our minds?
Matter does its job whether there is a mind or not.
Your task is to answer how matter can behave according to laws of physics IF (a) there are no people, and (b) laws of physics are ONLY in our minds.
What is the answer to how this works? The answer can't be that it behaves according to the laws of physics in that case if laws of physics are only in our minds.
It's amazing that you can't understand something so simple, by the way (or otherwise the uncharitable answer is that this is some sort of weird trolling)
I'm not asking about you personally, but people in general. How can matter behave according to the laws of physics 3.5 billion years ago IF the laws of physics are ONLY something in our minds?
Matter does its job whether there is a mind or not.
Your task is to answer how matter can behave according to laws of physics IF (a) there are no people, and (b) laws of physics are ONLY in our minds.
No one knows what mass is for example. But a massive object behaves in a specific way because it has mass.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:28 pm
What is the answer to how this works? The answer can't be that it behaves according to the laws of physics in that case if laws of physics are only in our minds.
It's amazing that you can't understand something so simple, by the way (or otherwise the uncharitable answer is that this is some sort of weird trolling)
And I cannot be more clear than that matter does not care whether it follows the laws of nature or not. The matter is unconscious when it comes to how it behaves.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:26 pm
Matter does its job whether there is a mind or not.
Your task is to answer how matter can behave according to laws of physics IF (a) there are no people, and (b) laws of physics are ONLY in our minds.
No one knows what mass is for example. But a massive object behaves in a specific way because it has mass.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:28 pm
What is the answer to how this works? The answer can't be that it behaves according to the laws of physics in that case if laws of physics are only in our minds.
It's amazing that you can't understand something so simple, by the way (or otherwise the uncharitable answer is that this is some sort of weird trolling)
And I cannot be more clear than that matter does not care whether it follows the laws of nature or not. The matter is unconscious when it comes to how it behaves.
Your comments have nothing to do with mine. You don't at all understand what I wrote. Are you not interested in understanding it?
