You got nothing here.uwot wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:54 pmWell, the cosmic microwave background radiation is the wavelength it is because space, the material through which it propagates is expanding, according to the most prevalent hypothesis. The information is still there, it's just stretched out a bit. The expansion of the universe is not generally thought to affect electromagnetic and gravitational fields in the same way. The redshift of distant galaxies is believed to be a simple example of the Doppler Effect, but the information carried in them is exactly the same as it has been for the perhaps billions of years they have been travelling through space, it's just spread out a bit.Ok; so consciousness is notYeah, when you offered to prove it, I was fairly confident I would be inviting the 'I could blow your fucking brains out' line of argument, so I thought I'd pass.
An argument against materialism
Re: An argument against materialism
Re: An argument against materialism
Ah yes, but I have two vaccum cleaners and a selection of electrical goods.
Tell me how you want to change your personality, and what memories and motor skills you would like to loose and I can get to work as soon as you like.
How much conviction that your consciousness is going to persist into the universe? Care to put it to the test??? I doubt it.
Let's face it - if your consciousness field carries on forever then just how far out does it reach in the x number of years you are already lived??
According to your flim-flam mine will be way out of the solar system by now as it has been travelling for 61 years. Odd that I can't feel that in some way.
Re: An argument against materialism
Well, if you can excavate the bit that doesn't give a fuck what you think, perhaps we could have the fight you apparently want.
None, hence this exchange:
Re: An argument against materialism
Re: An argument against materialism
Well, if you had read just a little further, you would have got to the bit where I pointed out that I had already conceded the part you are objecting to:
If you want to challenge the argument I am defending, it is that any story that isn't demonstrably false could be true.
Re: An argument against materialism
This is the bit I found objectionable:
...then I don't see why it should be assumed to be different from other physical fields which will propagate through the universe for as long as there is a universe.
What is important about the brain, is the interconnectivity, anything outside the brain is just a fuzz, and is not eternal.
Re: An argument against materialism
It was you who said that consciousness...
At what distance from emission does the energetic field stop being part of consciousness?
- Conde Lucanor
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Re: An argument against materialism
But "mental properties" as anything different than intrinsic properties of physical objects and their material processes, is not materialism qua substance monism. Don't confuse emergence with creation. I thought you wanted to advance an argument against materialism, as the OP states.bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 8:22 pmI am talking about mental properties rather than physical properties. Matter behaves according to the laws of physics. Mental phenomena are assumed to be emergent. They are not needed for the matter to act according to the laws of physics.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 2:29 amFrom where did you get that emergent properties and laws of physics run in different paths? If you get 2 atoms of hydrogen (a gas) and one of oxygen (another gas), and put them together, you get water (a liquid). That follows physical laws and creates emergent properties.
Re: An argument against materialism
What do you mean? I mean withing materialism which is a sort of monism, matter acts according to laws of physics rather than any other thing like laws of psychology. Consciousness is irrelevant. It is the byproduct of the matter process which obeys the laws of physics.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 pmBut "mental properties" as anything different than intrinsic properties of physical objects and their material processes, is not materialism qua substance monism.bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 8:22 pmI am talking about mental properties rather than physical properties. Matter behaves according to the laws of physics. Mental phenomena are assumed to be emergent. They are not needed for the matter to act according to the laws of physics.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 2:29 am
From where did you get that emergent properties and laws of physics run in different paths? If you get 2 atoms of hydrogen (a gas) and one of oxygen (another gas), and put them together, you get water (a liquid). That follows physical laws and creates emergent properties.
Consciousness is either emergent (strong emergence)/created or it is an intrinsic property (property dualism). I am arguing against the first one.
Yes.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 pm I thought you wanted to advance an argument against materialism, as the OP states.
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Re: An argument against materialism
What do I mean? I mean that the laws of physics do not preclude conscious processes being physical. That is what the concept of emergence entails, matter organized in such a way that some properties, only possible when this lower order is present, arise as a higher order. It is not then that "consciousness is irrelevant".bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:19 pmWhat do you mean? I mean withing materialism which is a sort of monism, matter acts according to laws of physics rather than any other thing like laws of psychology. Consciousness is irrelevant. It is the byproduct of the matter process which obeys the laws of physics.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 pmBut "mental properties" as anything different than intrinsic properties of physical objects and their material processes, is not materialism qua substance monism.
If you imply creation as a new thing independent of the lower order from which it emerges, then that's not emergentism. Water has different properties than the oxygen and hydrogen gases from which it emerges, but that does not mean that water has been created new and no longer has any relation with oxygen and hydrogen. Just the same, consciousness emerges as a property of matter in a new order of organization of that same matter.
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Re: An argument against materialism
And you're still ignoring that there are physicalists (or materialists) who are not realists on physical laws. In other words, who do NOT say that matter "obeys the laws of physics." The "laws of physics" are simply a way of thinking/talking about regularities that are observed in particulars.bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:19 pm What do you mean? I mean withing materialism which is a sort of monism, matter acts according to laws of physics rather than any other thing like laws of psychology. Consciousness is irrelevant. It is the byproduct of the matter process which obeys the laws of physics.
Re: An argument against materialism
That is what a law is. It is a human conceived generalism build inductively from observations, and designed to predict future events.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 12:57 pm " The "laws of physics" are simply a way of thinking/talking about regularities that are observed in particulars.
Dumb matter cannot be said to "obey". It has no volition, so how can you argue from that teleological position?
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Re: An argument against materialism
ExactlySculptor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:18 pmThat is what a law is. It is a human conceived generalism build inductively from observations, and designed to predict future events.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 12:57 pm " The "laws of physics" are simply a way of thinking/talking about regularities that are observed in particulars.
Dumb matter cannot be said to "obey". It has no volition, so how can you argue from that teleological position?
Re: An argument against materialism
There is only physical process in materialism. There is no such a thing as conscious process within materialism.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 amWhat do I mean? I mean that the laws of physics do not preclude conscious processes being physical.bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:19 pmWhat do you mean? I mean withing materialism which is a sort of monism, matter acts according to laws of physics rather than any other thing like laws of psychology. Consciousness is irrelevant. It is the byproduct of the matter process which obeys the laws of physics.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 pm
But "mental properties" as anything different than intrinsic properties of physical objects and their material processes, is not materialism qua substance monism.
How does matter behave in the brain? It is based on the laws of physics. There is no higher or lower order. The matter gets ordered and this order can be formulated in terms of physical properties only.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 am That is what the concept of emergence entails, matter organized in such a way that some properties, only possible when this lower order is present, arise as a higher order.
Consciousness is irrelevant since matter behaves based on the laws of physics.
No, I don't mean that. Emergence is the result of the lower-order process, the so-called physical process.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 amIf you imply creation as a new thing independent of the lower order from which it emerges, then that's not emergentism.
All properties of water, which are physical properties, are a function of the physical properties of hydrogen and oxygen. There is no emergence (strong emergence) there.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 am Water has different properties than the oxygen and hydrogen gases from which it emerges, but that does not mean that water has been created new and no longer has any relation with oxygen and hydrogen.
Again, all properties of the brain, which are physical properties, are a function of physical properties of the brain constitutes.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 am Just the same, consciousness emerges as a property of matter in a new order of organization of that same matter.