Right, and you don't believe that they're just a way that people think about how physical phenomena "behave." Thus, you're a realist on the laws of physics--you believe that laws of physics exist, and that they're independent of persons' minds.
An argument against materialism
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
Re: An argument against materialism
Matter behaves. Matter has properties. The behaviour of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter. This could be understood abstractly by an inteligent agent.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pmRight, and you don't believe that they're just a way that people think about how physical phenomena "behave."
There are at least two minds. I don't have any argument for more minds.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pm Thus, you're a realist on the laws of physics--you believe that laws of physics exist, and that they're independent of persons' minds.
- Conde Lucanor
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am
Re: An argument against materialism
The point is that, consistent with materialism, matter affects conscious processes, while conscious processes have no effect on matter. So, matter is quite relevant for conscious processes.
I already refuted your argument that there's no direct relation between our material brain and the conscious processes of that brain. Your argument is that conscious processes cannot alter matter, therefore it is irrelevant to matter, but to show a relation between matter and consciousness all that is needed is that matter affects consciousness, which is what actually happens. And one example of this is when the biological organism that carries the conscious brain ceases to operate, dies, immediately turning off consciousness as well. No one has seen consciousness in a dead organism.
I am talking about simple materials: water and salt. No mention whatsoever of consciousness and sensory systems of an agent.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
So as a realist on the laws of physics, what do you believe that the laws are, exactly?bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:14 pmMatter behaves. Matter has properties. The behaviour of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter. This could be understood abstractly by an inteligent agent.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pmRight, and you don't believe that they're just a way that people think about how physical phenomena "behave."
There are at least two minds. I don't have any argument for more minds.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pm Thus, you're a realist on the laws of physics--you believe that laws of physics exist, and that they're independent of persons' minds.
Re: An argument against materialism
The point I am making is the conscious phenomena do not affect matter. Therefore it is irrelevant.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:48 amThe point is that, consistent with materialism, matter affects conscious processes, while conscious processes have no effect on matter. So, matter is quite relevant for conscious processes.
I am not talking about whether consciousness is an emergent property of the matter process here. I am arguing that consciousness is irrelevant.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:48 amI already refuted your argument that there's no direct relation between our material brain and the conscious processes of that brain. Your argument is that conscious processes cannot alter matter, therefore it is irrelevant to matter, but to show a relation between matter and consciousness all that is needed is that matter affects consciousness, which is what actually happens. And one example of this is when the biological organism that carries the conscious brain ceases to operate, dies, immediately turning off consciousness as well. No one has seen consciousness in a dead organism.
If you are talking about water then you should know that the properties of water, mass, spin, and charge distribution are a function of the properties of hydrogen and oxygen.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:48 amI am talking about simple materials: water and salt. No mention whatsoever of consciousness and sensory systems of an agent.
Re: An argument against materialism
I already mention that. Matter behaves. The matter has properties. The behavior of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter, the so-called laws of nature.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 11:00 amSo as a realist on the laws of physics, what do you believe that the laws are, exactly?bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:14 pmMatter behaves. Matter has properties. The behaviour of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter. This could be understood abstractly by an inteligent agent.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pm
Right, and you don't believe that they're just a way that people think about how physical phenomena "behave."
There are at least two minds. I don't have any argument for more minds.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 11:08 pm Thus, you're a realist on the laws of physics--you believe that laws of physics exist, and that they're independent of persons' minds.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
Sure. So do you see the laws as existing uniquely in each bit of matter?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:20 pmI already mention that. Matter behaves. The matter has properties. The behavior of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter, the so-called laws of nature.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 11:00 amSo as a realist on the laws of physics, what do you believe that the laws are, exactly?
Re: An argument against materialism
True.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:46 pmSure. So do you see the laws as existing uniquely in each bit of matter?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:20 pmI already mention that. Matter behaves. The matter has properties. The behavior of matter can be formulated in terms of the properties of matter, the so-called laws of nature.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 11:00 am
So as a realist on the laws of physics, what do you believe that the laws are, exactly?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
Great. So no two laws would be identical then? Each bit of matter would essentially have a non-identical law to other bits of matter, no?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 9:03 pmTrue.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:46 pmSure. So do you see the laws as existing uniquely in each bit of matter?
Re: An argument against materialism
By each law of physics, I mean a formula that puts partial constrain on the motion of an object. You however need a set of laws in order to properly constrain the motion of the object to be deterministic.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pmGreat. So no two laws would be identical then? Each bit of matter would essentially have a non-identical law to other bits of matter, no?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 9:03 pmTrue.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 8:46 pm
Sure. So do you see the laws as existing uniquely in each bit of matter?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
Okay, but a formula that's a property of each bit of matter, right?--where each bit of matter would have a non-identical formula to other bits of matter?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:58 pmBy each law of physics, I mean a formula that puts partial constrain on the motion of an object. You however need a set of laws in order to properly constrain the motion of the object to be deterministic.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pmGreat. So no two laws would be identical then? Each bit of matter would essentially have a non-identical law to other bits of matter, no?
Re: An argument against materialism
Matter behaves according to a set of formulas, so-called the laws of physics.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:03 amOkay, but a formula that's a property of each bit of matter, right?bahman wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:58 pmBy each law of physics, I mean a formula that puts partial constrain on the motion of an object. You however need a set of laws in order to properly constrain the motion of the object to be deterministic.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pm
Great. So no two laws would be identical then? Each bit of matter would essentially have a non-identical law to other bits of matter, no?
Matter just behaves deterministically. It does not have any formula. What do you mean by non-identical formula?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pm --where each bit of matter would have a non-identical formula to other bits of matter?
- Conde Lucanor
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am
Re: An argument against materialism
I agree is irrelevant to your point. And your point, nothing to do with materialism.
Again, irrelevant to your point.
The physical properties of water are not the same as the physical properties of hydrogen and the physical properties of oxygen. For a clear, basic understanding of what "physical property" refers to, check the references provided before.
Re: An argument against materialism
It has. Something like consciousness is irrelevant in materialism. How does possibly matter process leads to consciousness which corresponds to reality to such fantastic precision.Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:19 amI agree is irrelevant to your point. And your point, nothing to do with materialism.
It is relevant.
Can you name a property of water where it is not reducible to the properties of hydrogen and oxygen?Conde Lucanor wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:19 amThe physical properties of water are not the same as the physical properties of hydrogen and the physical properties of oxygen. For a clear, basic understanding of what "physical property" refers to, check the references provided before.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 4548
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
- Location: NYC Man
Re: An argument against materialism
You seem to be losing your thread of thought already. Above, in trying to clarify (for both of us it seems) just what your ontological view is about this stuff, I asked:bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:53 amMatter behaves according to a set of formulas, so-called the laws of physics.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:03 amOkay, but a formula that's a property of each bit of matter, right?
Matter just behaves deterministically. It does not have any formula. What do you mean by non-identical formula?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pm --where each bit of matter would have a non-identical formula to other bits of matter?
"So do you see the laws as existing uniquely in each bit of matter?"
And you answered "true."
But now it seems like you're backing away from that.