Philosophy Clan

[Terrapin Station]

It's one of the big disadvantages of this format over talking to others in person. People are far less likely to behave like tools in person, because of the consequences of doing so in person. In person is best, then video chat is second best. I also prefer chatting in general to message boards, because message boards seem to encourage people to lecture and not listen/interact very well.

[commonsense]

It's the continuity of your experience, and it's not different from second to second in any way that's meaningful.

Unless you are reliving the exact same moment over and over, experience differs second to second in every way imaginable!

To insist that those differences aren't "meaningful" is to discard the very content of experience.

If everything was meaningful, nothing would be meaningful. The brain cannot Always On with everything.

Take language as one example of everything. In that instance, everything has meaning. Everything.

[Advocate]

[quote=commonsense post_id=503462 time=1616335711 user_id=14610]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503454 time=1616333040 user_id=15238]
[quote=Skepdick post_id=503408 time=1616310810 user_id=17350]

Unless you are reliving the exact same moment over and over, experience differs second to second in every way imaginable!

To insist that those differences aren't "meaningful" is to discard the very content of experience.
[/quote]

If everything was meaningful, nothing would be meaningful. The brain cannot Always On with everything.
[/quote]

Take language as one example of everything. In that instance, everything has meaning. Everything.
[/quote]

But language isn't everything, it's a small subset of everything. The brain cannot progress everything that happens around it. The main thing it does is selectively ignore most information and simplistically categorize the rest. 99% of what your subconscious mind regards is discarded. Everything is not meaningful, and even in your language example, everyone doesn't need all the words.

[Advocate]

[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=503458 time=1616333819 user_id=12582]
It's one of the big disadvantages of this format over talking to others in person. People are far less likely to behave like tools in person, because of the consequences of doing so in person. In person is best, then video chat is second best. I also prefer chatting in general to message boards, because message boards seem to encourage people to lecture and not listen/interact very well.
[/quote]

I avoid video chat with the understanding that people will misinterprete me far worse there, and it's already bad enough, because they tend to accept body language and facial expressions as more relevant than the actual content of my speech.

And most chat options are insufficient because you can't interact at the speed of your thoughts.

[commonsense]

Advocate,

Body language, facial expressions and tone of voice make up 93% of communication.

Just because you don’t pay attention to a word doesn’t erase its meaning or meaningfulness.

[Advocate]

[quote=commonsense post_id=503481 time=1616342222 user_id=14610]
Advocate,

Body language, facial expressions and tone of voice make up 93% of communication.

Just because you don’t pay attention to a word doesn’t erase its meaning or meaningfulness.
[/quote]

I don't communicate that way, i just say what i mean.

[Lacewing]

One can't abandon ego/identity/embodiment/self/perspective, but one can adequately account for it, and it's not always relevant.

Sure you can. Trivially at that.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. --Heraclitus

If you take that as an axiom your "identity" is literally different from one moment to the next, which leaves you with the task of re-conceptualising what your "identity" even is; or what it means.

I agree with you Skepdick.

Many people have discovered how to live in the moment without being held or driven by some concept of an identity. Very much the way children initially approach the world... with wonder and a sense of adventure for every new path or opportunity. A sense of belonging and connection is in place rather than any self-conscious role-playing. And that's not a childish thing, it is natural.

[Advocate]

[quote=Lacewing post_id=503493 time=1616351955 user_id=11228]
[quote=Skepdick post_id=503385 time=1616283456 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503383 time=1616283143 user_id=15238]
One can't abandon ego/identity/embodiment/self/perspective, but one can adequately account for it, and it's not always relevant.
[/quote]
Sure you can. Trivially at that.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. --Heraclitus

If you take that as an axiom your "identity" is literally different from one moment to the next, which leaves you with the task of re-conceptualising what your "identity" even is; or what it means.
[/quote]
I agree with you Skepdick.

Many people have discovered how to live in the moment without being held or driven by some concept of an identity. Very much the way children initially approach the world... with wonder and a sense of adventure for every new path or opportunity. A sense of belonging and connection is in place rather than any self-conscious role-playing. And that's not a childish thing, it is natural.
[/quote]

It's sub-human. Animals do "just be". To be human is to have the capacity for cognition, not mere sentience. It is literally less evolved to not press your outer brain into service at its best. Feeling your way through life is short-sighted by definition and intellectually regressive to boot. The use of meditative techniques like empty mind are only good for a momentary reset of your perspective. If you attain that state of empty mind permanently, you're atrophying your intellect.

[Lacewing]

It's sub-human. Animals do "just be". To be human is to have the capacity for cognition, not mere sentience. It is literally less evolved to not press your outer brain into service at its best. Feeling your way through life is short-sighted by definition and intellectually regressive to boot. The use of meditative techniques like empty mind are only good for a momentary reset of your perspective. If you attain that state of empty mind permanently, you're atrophying your intellect.

Who said anything about having an empty mind or not thinking? Thinking doesn't require a fantasy identity, that' all. Not being in service to an identity means not being a blind, desperate slave to it. Imagine the capability of such freedom.

[Gary Childress]

It's sub-human. Animals do "just be". To be human is to have the capacity for cognition, not mere sentience. It is literally less evolved to not press your outer brain into service at its best. Feeling your way through life is short-sighted by definition and intellectually regressive to boot. The use of meditative techniques like empty mind are only good for a momentary reset of your perspective. If you attain that state of empty mind permanently, you're atrophying your intellect.

Who said anything about having an empty mind or not thinking? Thinking doesn't require a fantasy identity, that' all. Not being in service to an identity means not being a blind, desperate slave to it. Imagine the capability of such freedom.

I think people can pretend to be "identityless" if they want. However, I wonder if it necessarily solves anything. I mean, I can think I'm rich and famous but if that's not true, then I'm still a pauper just the same and will go through the same things in life that a pauper does. I can think anything I want about my identity or lack of one but identity has a lot of say about a person in this world. Yes. I know, it can be saddening but it's difficult to escape who or what one is. I mean, if someone were an "ax murderer," are they "identityless"? I assume they belong behind bars (or wherever it is that ax murderers deserve to end up).

[Lacewing]

I think people can pretend to be "identityless" if they want. However, I wonder if it necessarily solves anything. I mean, I can think I'm rich and famous but if that's not true, then I'm still a pauper just the same and will go through the same things in life that a pauper does. I can think anything I want about my identity or lack of one but identity has a lot of say about a person in this world. Yes. I know, it can be saddening but it's difficult to escape who or what one is. I mean, if someone were an "ax murderer," are they "identityless"? I assume they belong behind bars (or wherever it is that ax murderers deserve to end up).

Sure, people can pretend anything. And it's kind of obvious when they do. Although it may not be obvious to people when they tend towards fantasy, themselves. Especially when they are looking to validate their own fantasy by means of another fantasy.

My reference to a fantasy identity is meant to point to the way people can be controlled by an identity they have created over time. They make up rules and stories about how it is, and how they are, and who they are, and what cannot be otherwise. Yet, each human actually has a wide range for what they can be and see from moment to moment. It is not set in stone -- so why live (more limited) like it is? One can be conscious without continually tripping over one's identity. And one can be even more effective in life (I think) by not allowing some supposed identity to call all the shots.

[Skepdick]

I agree with you Skepdick.

Many people have discovered how to live in the moment without being held or driven by some concept of an identity. Very much the way children initially approach the world... with wonder and a sense of adventure for every new path or opportunity. A sense of belonging and connection is in place rather than any self-conscious role-playing. And that's not a childish thing, it is natural.

Indeed, I see the notion of "identity" as childish. Too primitive. Too reductionist. It's the game children play: trying to define themselves.

We don't have identities.

We have names, histories, families, cultures, desires, dreams, goals, aspirations, shortcomings, emotions, feelings, mood swings and other humanly things.

[Skepdick]

If everything was meaningful, nothing would be meaningful. The brain cannot Always On with everything.

OK... You defined your identity as "the continuity of your experiences".

Is your brain "Always On" with all of your experiences? Which of your experiences aren't meaningful?

[Gary Childress]

We have names, histories, families, cultures, desires, dreams, goals, aspirations, shortcomings, emotions, feelings, mood swings and other humanly things.

All those things are "identities." Either you believe we have identities or you don't. But without them you can barely form a sentence.

[Skepdick]

All those things are "identities." Either you believe we have identities or you don't. But without them you can barely form a sentence.

I don't believe in identities outside of logic/mathematics.
I am busy forming sentences just fine.

Identity is not necessary. It's just another one of those Dogmas of Logic/Mathematics that has carried over into our daily lives.