Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In [2]

[Eodnhoj7]

Here is another explanation re
Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In [2]

So far I have not come across any poster here claiming,
A description-of-a-thing-X is the-thing-X-being-described.

As far as I am concerned, I believe,
Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31180
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISdBAf-ysI0 AL-Khalili

Therefore when a person [humans] describe a thing-X, that thing-X-being-described is co-created by the person [humans] making that description.

At the crudest level, it is the same as me describing a table I made, is the same table created by myself.
Obviously my description of the table I created is not the table I described.
My description merely refer to the table I created.

At the finest philosophical level -not common sense - all of reality is co-created by me and all humans.
Obviously my description of reality I co-created is not the co-created reality I described.
My description merely refer to the reality I co-created.

We certainly 'co-describe' the reality we are in.
But in what way do we co-create that reality?
Do you really think we co-created the universe?

The question is co-create 'in what way'.

Humans are not the co-creators of reality in the ways that human conventionally create things like tables, buildings, boats, airplanes and the likes.
As such to understand [not necessary agree with] my point, one cannot be stuck with the above conventional perspective.

Here is the perspective where humans are the co-creator of reality.
Create = to cause to come into being,
Reality [all there is] exists, i.e. emerges.
The fact is humanity [i.e. man] is a factor that cause reality into being.
Therefore, humans collectively are the co-creator of reality - all there is - thus including the universe.

I am not going to explain above in thorough details, however I will provide some clues e.g. the Youtube link above.

Here is another clue I had often linked, i.e. the Mask Illusion,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKa0eaKsdA0
What we have here is a mask with a concave and convex side.
When the mask is turning, how is it that ALL [no exceptions] humans participating, only see a 3-D convex face?

An image example;

This face of Björn Borg appears convex (pushed out), but is actually concave (pushed in).

If we were to present the above to a group of humans who are totally ignorant of what is going on, they will insist what is real is a 3-D mask with both sides as convex.
No amount of arguments will convince them to change their mind as to what they perceive and realize as reality.
( they will only realize the truth if they are told of the illusion).

Btw, blind sonar bats are not likely to perceive the above in the same mode as humans.

Now let turn to our conventional reality of external physical things we can
touch as solid, e.g. table, stones, apples, metal, trees, animals, people, etc.
see like clouds, steam, vapors, etc.
It is possible that we humans [generic] view the above things as what they are, but like those who are ignorant of the Mask Illusion, what see as physically real could be another form of illusion which we are not aware of because we are so habitualized to it for 4 billions of years [since our one-celled ancestors].

We are quite sure blind sonar bats and others of the likes [if can able to describe] will not agree with our descriptions of what is reality to us.

And WHO ARE WE HUMANS to insist our description of the reality is THE REAL REALITY.
Aliens who are 1000 times more advanced than earthly human are not likely to agree with our human description of reality [justified within the human FSK].

But recently [last 50-75 years] Quantum Physics has revealed to us, there is no ultimate reality as with the wave-particle dilemma and that the subject is inevitably entangled with what is realized as real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism
It claims that it is meaningless to talk about the "true reality" of a model as we can never be absolutely certain of anything. The only meaningful thing is the usefulness of the model.

Since there is not certainty of what is real and what is real is relative to whether the realizer of reality are bats, humans, aliens, etc., each of these groups are the co-creator of their own reality.

As such humans are the co-creators of human-based-reality via the human FSR.

And WHO ARE WE HUMANS to insist as the final arbiter that our description of the reality [as justified via the human FSR/FSK] is THE ULTIMATE REAL REALITY.

If humans are under an illusion and this illusion is part of reality then human deception is part of reality and humans create reality by creating illusion.

[Veritas Aequitas]

As such humans are the co-creators of human-based-reality via the human FSR.

And WHO ARE WE HUMANS to insist as the final arbiter that our description of the reality [as justified via the human FSR/FSK] is THE ULTIMATE REAL REALITY.

If humans are under an illusion and this illusion is part of reality then human deception is part of reality and humans create reality by creating illusion.

Yes, that is the point, see;

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25316

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
Anil Seth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo
Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience -- and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it.
How does this happen?

According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we're all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it "reality."

Join Seth for a delightfully disorienting talk that may leave you questioning the very nature of your existence.

There are many levels and degrees of hallucinations.
That which is a hallucinated-reality is not the same as the hallucinations by schizophrenics and other general hallucinations as in;

• Seeing Dead People? Don't Worry, You're Not Insane.
  https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2 ... nsane.html

The pragmatist view of "Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In" is,
humans and humanity are to be the masters of their own destiny, i.e. the good, the bad and the ugly,
they have to modulate their own sufferings and happiness instead of clinging and crying to an illusory God who would command believers to kill non-believers [this evilness is so evident].

[Eodnhoj7]

As such humans are the co-creators of human-based-reality via the human FSR.

And WHO ARE WE HUMANS to insist as the final arbiter that our description of the reality [as justified via the human FSR/FSK] is THE ULTIMATE REAL REALITY.

If humans are under an illusion and this illusion is part of reality then human deception is part of reality and humans create reality by creating illusion.

Yes, that is the point, see;

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25316

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
Anil Seth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo
Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience -- and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it.
How does this happen?

According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we're all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it "reality."

Join Seth for a delightfully disorienting talk that may leave you questioning the very nature of your existence.

There are many levels and degrees of hallucinations.
That which is a hallucinated-reality is not the same as the hallucinations by schizophrenics and other general hallucinations as in;

• Seeing Dead People? Don't Worry, You're Not Insane.
  https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2 ... nsane.html

The pragmatist view of "Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In" is,
humans and humanity are to be the masters of their own destiny, i.e. the good, the bad and the ugly,
they have to modulate their own sufferings and happiness instead of clinging and crying to an illusory God who would command believers to kill non-believers [this evilness is so evident].

This religion is a creation of man thus man is causing his own problems. Hallucinations are a byproduct of human creation thus you are stuck separating one form of creation from another and using a creation to do this. You end up in a logic loop. How does one judge a creation through another creation without being subject to an infinite regress where the creation responsible for judging is in turn judged by another creation? You can't.

[Veritas Aequitas]

If humans are under an illusion and this illusion is part of reality then human deception is part of reality and humans create reality by creating illusion.

Yes, that is the point, see;

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25316

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
Anil Seth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo
Right now, billions of neurons in your brain are working together to generate a conscious experience -- and not just any conscious experience, your experience of the world around you and of yourself within it.
How does this happen?

According to neuroscientist Anil Seth, we're all hallucinating all the time; when we agree about our hallucinations, we call it "reality."

Join Seth for a delightfully disorienting talk that may leave you questioning the very nature of your existence.

There are many levels and degrees of hallucinations.
That which is a hallucinated-reality is not the same as the hallucinations by schizophrenics and other general hallucinations as in;

• Seeing Dead People? Don't Worry, You're Not Insane.
  https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2 ... nsane.html

The pragmatist view of "Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In" is,
humans and humanity are to be the masters of their own destiny, i.e. the good, the bad and the ugly,
they have to modulate their own sufferings and happiness instead of clinging and crying to an illusory God who would command believers to kill non-believers [this evilness is so evident].

This religion is a creation of man thus man is causing his own problems. Hallucinations are a byproduct of human creation thus you are stuck separating one form of creation from another and using a creation to do this. You end up in a logic loop. How does one judge a creation through another creation without being subject to an infinite regress where the creation responsible for judging is in turn judged by another creation? You can't.

Not sure what is your point.

My point is humans are the co-creators of reality they are part and parcel of.
This perspective is very useful to the individuals and humanity in the sense that humans can be the master of their own destiny to the best of their ability.
Therefore if one is suffering from an existential crisis, that is self-created and thus can be self-resolved rather that directing the problem to a thing-in-itself like a God or a soul.

[Eodnhoj7]

Yes, that is the point, see;

Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25316



There are many levels and degrees of hallucinations.
That which is a hallucinated-reality is not the same as the hallucinations by schizophrenics and other general hallucinations as in;

• Seeing Dead People? Don't Worry, You're Not Insane.
  https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2 ... nsane.html

The pragmatist view of "Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In" is,
humans and humanity are to be the masters of their own destiny, i.e. the good, the bad and the ugly,
they have to modulate their own sufferings and happiness instead of clinging and crying to an illusory God who would command believers to kill non-believers [this evilness is so evident].

This religion is a creation of man thus man is causing his own problems. Hallucinations are a byproduct of human creation thus you are stuck separating one form of creation from another and using a creation to do this. You end up in a logic loop. How does one judge a creation through another creation without being subject to an infinite regress where the creation responsible for judging is in turn judged by another creation? You can't.

Not sure what is your point.

My point is humans are the co-creators of reality they are part and parcel of.
This perspective is very useful to the individuals and humanity in the sense that humans can be the master of their own destiny to the best of their ability.
Therefore if one is suffering from an existential crisis, that is self-created and thus can be self-resolved rather that directing the problem to a thing-in-itself like a God or a soul.

We judge one creation (hallucination) from another creation (non-hallucination) through an fsk which is another creation. We use creations to judge creations thus resulting in a logic loop.

[Veritas Aequitas]

This religion is a creation of man thus man is causing his own problems. Hallucinations are a byproduct of human creation thus you are stuck separating one form of creation from another and using a creation to do this. You end up in a logic loop. How does one judge a creation through another creation without being subject to an infinite regress where the creation responsible for judging is in turn judged by another creation? You can't.

Not sure what is your point.

My point is humans are the co-creators of reality they are part and parcel of.
This perspective is very useful to the individuals and humanity in the sense that humans can be the master of their own destiny to the best of their ability.
Therefore if one is suffering from an existential crisis, that is self-created and thus can be self-resolved rather that directing the problem to a thing-in-itself like a God or a soul.

We judge one creation (hallucination) from another creation (non-hallucination) through an fsk which is another creation. We use creations to judge creations thus resulting in a logic loop.

Whatever that is, it is conditioned upon a FSK and the FSKs are also in part conditioned by other FSK constructed by humans.
I don't see any infinite loop with FSKs which are all are ending up as conditioned by humans.

Because all there is is conditioned by FSK and FSKs constructed by humans, thus reality, i.e. all there is is co-created by humans as per OP.

[Eodnhoj7]

Not sure what is your point.

My point is humans are the co-creators of reality they are part and parcel of.
This perspective is very useful to the individuals and humanity in the sense that humans can be the master of their own destiny to the best of their ability.
Therefore if one is suffering from an existential crisis, that is self-created and thus can be self-resolved rather that directing the problem to a thing-in-itself like a God or a soul.

We judge one creation (hallucination) from another creation (non-hallucination) through an fsk which is another creation. We use creations to judge creations thus resulting in a logic loop.

Whatever that is, it is conditioned upon a FSK and the FSKs are also in part conditioned by other FSK constructed by humans.
I don't see any infinite loop with FSKs which are all are ending up as conditioned by humans.

Because all there is is conditioned by FSK and FSKs constructed by humans, thus reality, i.e. all there is is co-created by humans as per OP.

One Fsk results in another Fsk which results in another until one is left with the original Fsk they started with. The logic is a loop. It is one creation judged by another until judgement itself is left as the act of creation. This creation is a loop thus necessitating a form which is beyond judgement that guides it. Human creation is guided by unchanging principles beyond it.

Dually to say it is co created is to say there is a distinct act of creation which exists prior to humans on it's own terms. For example to say their is a co-chef in a restaurant it to say there is another chef doing his own work. Co creation necessitates multiple selfs working together yet each is doing his own thing. Co creation necessitates each being dually responsible for itself yet working in harmony. This self necessitates a distinction between being with this distinction further necessitating a seperation.

[Veritas Aequitas]

We judge one creation (hallucination) from another creation (non-hallucination) through an fsk which is another creation. We use creations to judge creations thus resulting in a logic loop.

Whatever that is, it is conditioned upon a FSK and the FSKs are also in part conditioned by other FSK constructed by humans.
I don't see any infinite loop with FSKs which are all are ending up as conditioned by humans.

Because all there is is conditioned by FSK and FSKs constructed by humans, thus reality, i.e. all there is is co-created by humans as per OP.

One Fsk results in another Fsk which results in another until one is left with the original Fsk they started with. The logic is a loop. It is one creation judged by another until judgement itself is left as the act of creation. This creation is a loop thus necessitating a form which is beyond judgement that guides it. Human creation is guided by unchanging principles beyond it.

Dually to say it is co created is to say there is a distinct act of creation which exists prior to humans on it's own terms. For example to say their is a co-chef in a restaurant it to say there is another chef doing his own work. Co creation necessitates multiple selfs working together yet each is doing his own thing. Co creation necessitates each being dually responsible for itself yet working in harmony. This self necessitates a distinction between being with this distinction further necessitating a seperation.

Whatever the original FSK - i.e. framework and system, it is constructed by humans.
Thus if there is a loop it is looped within humanity.
Because it is looped within humanity, humans are the co-creators of reality.

I believe you are trying to suggest there is something external to humans, e.g. a God? which I have proven is an impossibility to be real.

[Eodnhoj7]

Whatever that is, it is conditioned upon a FSK and the FSKs are also in part conditioned by other FSK constructed by humans.
I don't see any infinite loop with FSKs which are all are ending up as conditioned by humans.

Because all there is is conditioned by FSK and FSKs constructed by humans, thus reality, i.e. all there is is co-created by humans as per OP.

One Fsk results in another Fsk which results in another until one is left with the original Fsk they started with. The logic is a loop. It is one creation judged by another until judgement itself is left as the act of creation. This creation is a loop thus necessitating a form which is beyond judgement that guides it. Human creation is guided by unchanging principles beyond it.

Dually to say it is co created is to say there is a distinct act of creation which exists prior to humans on it's own terms. For example to say their is a co-chef in a restaurant it to say there is another chef doing his own work. Co creation necessitates multiple selfs working together yet each is doing his own thing. Co creation necessitates each being dually responsible for itself yet working in harmony. This self necessitates a distinction between being with this distinction further necessitating a seperation.

Whatever the original FSK - i.e. framework and system, it is constructed by humans.
Thus if there is a loop it is looped within humanity.
Because it is looped within humanity, humans are the co-creators of reality.

I believe you are trying to suggest there is something external to humans, e.g. a God? which I have proven is an impossibility to be real.

The looping of Fsk's necessitates a form which exists beyond the fsk's, that of the loop.

[Veritas Aequitas]

One Fsk results in another Fsk which results in another until one is left with the original Fsk they started with. The logic is a loop. It is one creation judged by another until judgement itself is left as the act of creation. This creation is a loop thus necessitating a form which is beyond judgement that guides it. Human creation is guided by unchanging principles beyond it.

Dually to say it is co created is to say there is a distinct act of creation which exists prior to humans on it's own terms. For example to say their is a co-chef in a restaurant it to say there is another chef doing his own work. Co creation necessitates multiple selfs working together yet each is doing his own thing. Co creation necessitates each being dually responsible for itself yet working in harmony. This self necessitates a distinction between being with this distinction further necessitating a seperation.

Whatever the original FSK - i.e. framework and system, it is constructed by humans.
Thus if there is a loop it is looped within humanity.
Because it is looped within humanity, humans are the co-creators of reality.

I believe you are trying to suggest there is something external to humans, e.g. a God? which I have proven is an impossibility to be real.

The looping of Fsk's necessitates a form which exists beyond the fsk's, that of the loop.

Who said so?
You are merely insisting via words and your own logic, your above is true, but provide no solid verifications and justification at all.

[Eodnhoj7]

Whatever the original FSK - i.e. framework and system, it is constructed by humans.
Thus if there is a loop it is looped within humanity.
Because it is looped within humanity, humans are the co-creators of reality.

I believe you are trying to suggest there is something external to humans, e.g. a God? which I have proven is an impossibility to be real.

The looping of Fsk's necessitates a form which exists beyond the fsk's, that of the loop.

Who said so?
You are merely insisting via words and your own logic, your above is true, but provide no solid verifications and justification at all.

The looping of FSK's necessitates a looping form beyond the FSK's considering the FSK's follow a loop.

[Veritas Aequitas]

The looping of Fsk's necessitates a form which exists beyond the fsk's, that of the loop.

Who said so?
You are merely insisting via words and your own logic, your above is true, but provide no solid verifications and justification at all.

The looping of FSK's necessitates a looping form beyond the FSK's considering the FSK's follow a loop.

There is nothing to loop to beyond the ultimate FSK which is conditioned by humans.

[Eodnhoj7]

Who said so?
You are merely insisting via words and your own logic, your above is true, but provide no solid verifications and justification at all.

The looping of FSK's necessitates a looping form beyond the FSK's considering the FSK's follow a loop.

There is nothing to loop to beyond the ultimate FSK which is conditioned by humans.

This ultimate FSK repeats itself through itself and other FSKs thus necessitates a looping form beyond the FSK.