Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:41 pm
Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. It has no physicality of it's own.
You might as well say "That which I feel when I lift my right arm is a metaphor for the patterns of the musculo-skeletal system of my right fore-quarter."
Actually that which I feel when I raise my right arm is the subjective aspect corresponding to the objective aspect of the musculo-skeletal system of my right forequarter.
And so that which one feels when one thinks ice cream is the subjective aspect corresponding to the objective aspect of patterns in the brain.
[quote=commonsense post_id=501090 time=1615297630 user_id=14610]
[quote=Advocate post_id=501030 time=1615293691 user_id=15238]
Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. It has no physicality of it's own.
[/quote]
By “physicality” are you trying to avoid the more common terminology, “physical properties”, and artificially stilt your use of language?
[/quote]
I'm saying that mind is emergent. Yes, it has no physical properties of it's own. It has physical correlates, like every other idea. Ideas are all mind bound. Mind is the container for all other ideas. All minds exist in a brain, regardless of their particular contents.
[quote=Belinda post_id=501115 time=1615307383 user_id=12709]
[quote=Advocate post_id=501030 time=1615293691 user_id=15238]
Mind is a metaphor for the patterns in the brain. It has no physicality of it's own.
[/quote]
You might as well say "That which I feel when I lift my right arm is a metaphor for the patterns of the musculo-skeletal system of my right fore-quarter."
Actually that which I feel when I raise my right arm is the subjective aspect corresponding to the objective aspect of the musculo-skeletal system of my right forequarter.
And so that which one feels when one thinks ice cream is the subjective aspect corresponding to the objective aspect of patterns in the brain.
[/quote]
You rephrased me rather well. I concur. All ideas exist primarily in a non-physical mind space, whether or not they have an external correlation. Biological ideas happen to have an second biological correlation, but all ideas have a brain correlation because they must exist in a mind and all minds are, so far, brain bound.
"Mind' has two physical correlates, the source of stored information, being what a mind is, and the happenstance that it's physically bound to a brain. Maybe think of it as output/input. The sort of thing mind is could hypothetically be stored in some other medium and still be a mind, which would transfer one of the correlates from brain to chip, or whatever. It would still be physically bound.
VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:23 pm
If I were to suggest that you find a way in which to experience leaving your own body, and in doing so you then had evidence as data of experience, how would this change your current beliefs about the mind?
If there were any evidence of anyone "leaving their body" then that would impact this, obviously. Unfortunately there's no evidence of that and it seems just to be a very loose fantasy (good for fiction, but that's about it).
VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:23 pm
If I were to suggest that you find a way in which to experience leaving your own body, and in doing so you then had evidence as data of experience, how would this change your current beliefs about the mind?
If there were any evidence of anyone "leaving their body" then that would impact this, obviously. Unfortunately there's no evidence of that and it seems just to be a very loose fantasy (good for fiction, but that's about it).
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
[quote=VVilliam post_id=501125 time=1615313561 user_id=19546]
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
[/quote]
Experiencing leaving the body can be real, like so many other illusions, but proving it is not real, because You are embodied.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:54 am
How will your argument follow to reality, if you have not proved in the beginning, your mind [your definition] exists in reality.
I already proved that the mind is immortal. It cannot be created nor destroyed.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:54 am
Note you did not answer my question,
What positive benefits do you have for the individual[s] and humanity from your definition of what is mind?
I already answer that. The brain is physical and is constantly subject to change. Therefore, there are minds in the charge of these changes.
That is not an answer to my question.
In my and the conventional definition of mind, that definition of mind has helped to cure mental problems of individuals and thus contributed to humanity. It is also related in progress in education, intelligence, emotional states, sports, etc.
Unfortunately it has negative implications as well when people understand they can program and influence the mind of others via various negative ideology.
So I ask in a similar vein,
What positive benefits do you have for the individual[s] and humanity from your definition of what is mind?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:54 am
I can tell you, the only benefit for your definition of what is mind is merely a very selfish psychological benefit as a consonance to relieve the pains of cognitive dissonance.
There is no benefit in eternal life. It is just life.
At the extreme, the idea of an independent mind is about an independent soul that survives physical death to eternal life. This is related to an existential & soteriological cognitive dissonance and the subliminal threat of eternal death in hell.
But in general it also psychologically comforting to believe in an independent mind for various general reasons driven by crude reason [cause and effect] to relieve a general cognitive dissonance that there must be an independent mind.
I am already bored with my short life. I am very well aware that eternal life is like Hell. But we cannot avoid it.
VVilliam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:12 pm
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
Experiencing leaving the body can be real, like so many other illusions, but proving it is not real, because You are embodied.
Following the logic of your argument then, If illusions can be real, then reality could be an illusion. The illusion of being embodied, and the reality that you can leave your body - and ultimately if that is the truth, then upon death, one might as well be prepared for more experience - no longer able to argue that brains create experience...The shock of which might cause the unexpectant to freak out...
[quote=VVilliam post_id=501130 time=1615318742 user_id=19546]
[quote=Advocate post_id=501126 time=1615314218 user_id=15238]
[quote=VVilliam post_id=501125 time=1615313561 user_id=19546]
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
[/quote]
Experiencing leaving the body can be real, like so many other illusions, but proving it is not real, because You are embodied.
[/quote]
Following the logic of your argument then, If illusions can be real, then reality could be an illusion. The illusion of being embodied, and the reality that you can leave your body - and ultimately if that is the truth, then upon death, one might as well be prepared for more experience - no longer able to argue that brains create experience...The shock of which might cause the unexpectant to freak out...
[/quote]
VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:23 pm
If I were to suggest that you find a way in which to experience leaving your own body, and in doing so you then had evidence as data of experience, how would this change your current beliefs about the mind?
If there were any evidence of anyone "leaving their body" then that would impact this, obviously. Unfortunately there's no evidence of that and it seems just to be a very loose fantasy (good for fiction, but that's about it).
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
No, we'd simply need controlled evidence that someone's body is in one place and their mentality another place, where there's no other plausible, more mundane explanation. That would be possible to acquire if this weren't just a fantasy.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:00 pm
If there were any evidence of anyone "leaving their body" then that would impact this, obviously. Unfortunately there's no evidence of that and it seems just to be a very loose fantasy (good for fiction, but that's about it).
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
No, we'd simply need controlled evidence that someone's body is in one place and their mentality another place, where there's no other plausible, more mundane explanation. That would be possible to acquire if this weren't just a fantasy.
I once had an out-of-body experience. I could see the top of a three-story building.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:00 pm
If there were any evidence of anyone "leaving their body" then that would impact this, obviously. Unfortunately there's no evidence of that and it seems just to be a very loose fantasy (good for fiction, but that's about it).
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
No, we'd simply need controlled evidence that someone's body is in one place and their mentality another place, where there's no other plausible, more mundane explanation. That would be possible to acquire if this weren't just a fantasy.
Then explain how you would do this possible experiment...
So in your answer can I assume that any such experience you might have, you would simply consider it to be a fantasy produced by the brain onto the screen of your mind?
No, we'd simply need controlled evidence that someone's body is in one place and their mentality another place, where there's no other plausible, more mundane explanation. That would be possible to acquire if this weren't just a fantasy.
Then explain how you would do this possible experiment...
You'd need to have someone who claims they can astral project (or however we want to characterize it), and they'd need to mentally access something where we can confirm that they've never experienced it before and that they have no information about it--ideally, they'd be able to control where they travel mentally so that we can set up a unique environment re a particular time to ask questions about, or alternately they'd need to be able to peg events in the location in question that are unique to that time frame (where we can make sure there was no collusion beforehand, etc.). The location of their mental experience would have to be relatively isolated from anything happening in the vicinity of their body. The questioning would have to be done very carefully so that the answers have to be fairly specific, we have to make sure we're not leading the person on, etc., and it would have to be done immediately after the experience (or as close to it as possible) to ensure that they haven't been fed any info.
As long as we do all of this in a rigorous way, we'd be good to go.
No, we'd simply need controlled evidence that someone's body is in one place and their mentality another place, where there's no other plausible, more mundane explanation. That would be possible to acquire if this weren't just a fantasy.
Then explain how you would do this possible experiment...
You'd need to have someone who claims they can astral project (or however we want to characterize it), and they'd need to mentally access something where we can confirm that they've never experienced it before and that they have no information about it--ideally, they'd be able to control where they travel mentally so that we can set up a unique environment re a particular time to ask questions about, or alternately they'd need to be able to peg events in the location in question that are unique to that time frame (where we can make sure there was no collusion beforehand, etc.). The location of their mental experience would have to be relatively isolated from anything happening in the vicinity of their body. The questioning would have to be done very carefully so that the answers have to be fairly specific, we have to make sure we're not leading the person on, etc., and it would have to be done immediately after the experience (or as close to it as possible) to ensure that they haven't been fed any info.
As long as we do all of this in a rigorous way, we'd be good to go.
Do you know of any projects where this has been set up and undergone?
Then explain how you would do this possible experiment...
You'd need to have someone who claims they can astral project (or however we want to characterize it), and they'd need to mentally access something where we can confirm that they've never experienced it before and that they have no information about it--ideally, they'd be able to control where they travel mentally so that we can set up a unique environment re a particular time to ask questions about, or alternately they'd need to be able to peg events in the location in question that are unique to that time frame (where we can make sure there was no collusion beforehand, etc.). The location of their mental experience would have to be relatively isolated from anything happening in the vicinity of their body. The questioning would have to be done very carefully so that the answers have to be fairly specific, we have to make sure we're not leading the person on, etc., and it would have to be done immediately after the experience (or as close to it as possible) to ensure that they haven't been fed any info.
As long as we do all of this in a rigorous way, we'd be good to go.
Do you know of any projects where this has been set up and undergone?
I think there have been some attempts I've read about--and I've certainly read/heard loose anecdotal claims, but any details are a vague memory at the moment. One thing is for sure though: no one claiming astral projection ever received James Randi's million dollars.
