Infinity as Change

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Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm Abstractions are indefinite, not infinite. They must exist in the time and space at an actual brain.
The natural numbers are an infinite abstraction that is finitely defined using induction.

If you ask the computer - it'll give you as many numbers as your time allows....

Code: Select all

GHCi, version 8.10.4: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/  :? for help
Prelude> numbers = [0..]
Prelude> take 10 numbers
[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
Prelude> numbers
[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14.......
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503772 time=1616509300 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503748 time=1616504722 user_id=15238]
Abstractions are indefinite, not infinite. They must exist in the time and space at an actual brain.
[/quote]
The natural numbers are an infinite abstraction that is finitely defined using induction.

If you ask the computer - it'll give you as many numbers as your time allows....

[code]
GHCi, version 8.10.4: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
Prelude> numbers = [0..]
Prelude> take 10 numbers
[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
Prelude> numbers
[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14.......
[/code]
[/quote]

If they extend beyond the capacity of a mind to do something useful with them they're indistinguishable from fiction. That's a hard line epistemologically as well as pragmatically.
Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:16 pm If they extend beyond the capacity of a mind to do something useful with them they're indistinguishable from fiction. That's a hard line epistemologically as well as pragmatically.
And yet, here I am - distinguishing them. In a manner completely non-fictitious.

Separate from anybody's particular use-cases (of which there are plenty anyway).
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503834 time=1616523734 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503833 time=1616523374 user_id=15238]
If they extend beyond the capacity of a mind to do something useful with them they're indistinguishable from fiction. That's a hard line epistemologically as well as pragmatically.
[/quote]
And yet, here I am - distinguishing them. In a manner completely non-fictitious.

Separate from anybody's particular use-cases (of which there are plenty anyway).
[/quote]

What you said is 'fiction + denial = reality". I disagree.

You're still discussing entirely imaginary ideas. There is literally no sense in which infinity is either accessible or useful to us, and of course the former entails the latter. Pushing around symbols proves nothing unless they represent reality first.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:02 pm You're still discussing entirely imaginary ideas.
Which part of an algorithm running on a physical machine is "imaginary" to you exactly?

It's as empirical as it gets. The object whose very existence you deny is available for you to examine and interact with directly.

You own a computer. Load the software. Examine it for yourself - infinity at your fingertips!
Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:02 pm There is literally no sense in which infinity is either accessible or useful to us
I have literally shown you how it's accessible to us. It's useful because computation is useful.
Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:02 pm , and of course the former entails the latter. Pushing around symbols proves nothing unless they represent reality first.
Fuck representationalism. If you care about "actionable certainty" the only philosophy that matters is instrumentalism.

Infinity is useful.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503863 time=1616526840 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503855 time=1616526165 user_id=15238]
You're still discussing entirely imaginary ideas.
[/quote]
Which part of an algorithm running on a physical machine is "imaginary" to you exactly?

It's as empirical as it gets. The object whose very existence you deny is available for you to examine and interact with directly.

You own a computer. Load the software. Examine it for yourself - infinity at your fingertips!

[quote=Advocate post_id=503855 time=1616526165 user_id=15238]
There is literally no sense in which infinity is either accessible or useful to us
[/quote]
I have literally shown you how it's accessible to us. It's useful because computation is useful.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503855 time=1616526165 user_id=15238]
, and of course the former entails the latter. Pushing around symbols proves nothing unless they represent reality first.
[/quote]
Fuck representationalism. If you care about "actionable certainty" the only philosophy that matters is instrumentalism.

Infinity is useful.
[/quote]

Only as a semantic placeholder. To be useful in any other sense requires finite limits.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:17 pm Only as a semantic placeholder.
No shit! Which idea isn't? Philosophy is just conceptual design.
Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:17 pm To be useful in any other sense requires finite limits.
Which is precisely why I pointed you to a paper titled "Infinite sets that admit fast exhaustive search".

That's literally the semantics for taming infinity in finite time.
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503865 time=1616527153 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503864 time=1616527072 user_id=15238]
Only as a semantic placeholder.
[/quote]
No shit! Which idea isn't? Philosophy is just conceptual design.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503864 time=1616527072 user_id=15238]
To be useful in any other sense requires finite limits.
[/quote]
Which is precisely why I pointed you to a paper titled "Infinite sets that admit fast exhaustive search".

That's literally the semantics for taming infinity in finite time.
[/quote]

You cannot constrain the whole idea of infinity to useful limits, you can only choose a finite part of it to manage in finite ways. Math has gone beyond it's area of expertise and is now bullshit.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:44 pm You cannot constrain the whole idea of infinity to useful limits, , you can only choose a finite part of it to manage in finite ways.
Literally did. That's what the algorithm is.

Finite expression of an infinite idea.
Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:44 pm Math has gone beyond it's area of expertise and is now bullshit.
This is not Math. This is computer science.
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503871 time=1616529075 user_id=17350]
Finite expression of an infinite idea.
[/quote]

Those words also express an imaginary thing. It's not Really possible to express the infinite. Our reality is too small for that. Our lifetime is to small for that. Our brain is infinitely too small for that.

There's no math you can create that contains any more information than this symbol all on its own: ∞
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:11 pm Those words also express an imaginary thing. It's not Really possible to express the infinite. Our reality is too small for that. Our lifetime is to small for that. Our brain is infinitely too small for that.

There's no math you can create that contains any more information than this symbol all on its own: ∞
And yet... this tiny algorithm contains all the integers.

Code: Select all

GHCi, version 8.10.4: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/  :? for help
Prelude> numbers = [0..]
Probably because you don't understand how information works.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503880 time=1616530659 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503877 time=1616530264 user_id=15238]
Those words also express an imaginary thing. It's not Really possible to express the infinite. Our reality is too small for that. Our lifetime is to small for that. Our brain is infinitely too small for that.

There's no math you can create that contains any more information than this symbol all on its own: ∞
[/quote]
And yet... this tiny algorithm contains all the integers.

[code]
GHCi, version 8.10.4: https://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
Prelude> numbers = [0..]
[/code]

Probably because you don't understand how information works.
[/quote]

Integers are also imaginary, btw. There is no specific place where any thing ends and another begins. All of that is decided according to purpose. Math is only as good as it is a description of reality and infinity is outside reality.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:27 pm Integers are also imaginary, btw. There is no specific place where any thing ends and another begins. All of that is decided according to purpose. Math is only as good as it is a description of reality and infinity is outside reality.
We aren't talking about math. We are talking about computation.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503884 time=1616532190 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503882 time=1616531228 user_id=15238]
Integers are also imaginary, btw. There is no specific place where any thing ends and another begins. All of that is decided according to purpose. Math is only as good as it is a description of reality and infinity is outside reality.
[/quote]
We aren't talking about math. We are talking about computation.
[/quote]

Computing on imaginary entities yields imaginary results.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Ferdi wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:21 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:12 am The concept of the perfect circle continually repeats across multiple observers thereby making the perfect circle infinite.

It is the continual repetition of a phenomenon which makes it infinite.

For example a continually progressive function of the number line necessitates 1 existing in perpetual variation given each number is the number one repeating itself. Under this number line progression 1 exists as perpetually changing thus 1 is repeating in newer and newer variation through the numbers which follow from it.

1 as perpetually changing is 1 as an action. One as a continual action is 1 as infinite.

Infinity is perpetual change as action and can never be observed in its entirety except through the source which repeats itself under newer and newer variation. Infinity can be observed in the number 1 given 1 is infinite through perpetual change.

Infinity thus can be observed through the finite where the finite is the point of change from one phenomenon to another. Each finite object is infinite through its continual change with this change from one finite phenomenon to another being multiple infinities.


Your opening sentence is impressive but makes no sense. The simple fact is that the word ”circle” is the label for a particular 2 dimensional shape. The adjective “perfect” is superfluous. A circle has nothing to do with infinity unless you are a nitwit and walk along the line of a circle to look for the end of the line. If I met you wherever you may have been doing so, I would advise you to go back to where you started. If you did not remember where you started I would make a mark for you along the circle, then watch you going around and point out to you where you started and make you note that there is no end to such shape. Nothing to do with infinity !
INFINITY simply IS. We cannot see it. We exist in it. Lives come from it and return to it. We, our personality, came from it and returns to it.
The fact that the perfect circle is continually observed across multiple observers makes it continuous, as continuous it is infinite.
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