Infinity as Change

For all things philosophical.

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Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=502859 time=1615988646 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
Everything exists as concept. All things have a neutral correlate that exists in physical reality but when we say something is real that's not what is meant.
[/quote]
You don't get to prescribe what "is meant" by another person's use of language?

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
Some things also exist in consensus reality, the world outside of brains and minds. 2D lines cannot exist in that part of reality.
[/quote]
That's one way to conceptualise it! There are others. I keep asking, and you keep not telling me.

WHY are you CHOOSING to conceptualise it that way and not another way?

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
A dimension is any scale upon which something can be measured.
[/quote]
You don't even know what "measurement" is. Try [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics)]measure theory[/url].

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
Leftness/rightness is not metaphysically distinct from amount of favourite colourness. any chart with an axis shows a dimension, regardless of the spacial correlation.
[/quote]
This doesn't mean anything devoid of context. Such as the context of WHY are you saying it?

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
"Existence doesn't exist in reality..." You know this is why it's impossible to care about you, right?
[/quote]
I don't want you to care about me. I want you to tell me why anybody should care about you!

You keep saying shit. WHY? Do you even know?

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
I was trying to give you a serious answer and then BAM!, straight into a wall of bullshit.
[/quote]
Then answer the serious question. WHY are you doing what it is that you are doing.

[quote=Advocate post_id=502857 time=1615986086 user_id=15238]
Even your name is an ego problem that really needs to be fixed. Being a dick means you're less than human, regressive, intentionally impedimentary. Stop it, child.
[/quote]
Child, when you figure out how the principle of charity works and how to apply it, you might figure out that the only one impeding you and regressing here is you.

You keep preaching actionable certainty, but then you get stuck in the mud wanting to talk about the ideas. WHY? Talking doesn't lead to anything actionable. It leads into the Philosophical rabbit hole. Are you going down into the hole, or coming up?
[/quote]

My responses do lead to actionable certainty, but not for skeptics who dismiss the truth as easily as lies.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:54 pm My responses do lead to actionable certainty, but not for skeptics who dismiss the truth as easily as lies.
Who are you bullshitting? Me or you? Responses don't lead to action - they are just words.

You still think in dichotomies instead of continuums. You are talking about "truth" and "lies".

In the game of navigating uncertainty we talk about degrees of certainty. Unlikely, less likely, more likely, highly likely.

Actionable certainty happens PRECISELY when you silence your own, inner skeptic. When you are not uncertain you don't need to speak, just act.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=502862 time=1615989894 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=502860 time=1615989257 user_id=15238]
My responses do lead to actionable certainty, but not for skeptics who dismiss the truth as easily as lies.
[/quote]
Who are you bullshitting? Me or you? Responses don't lead to action - they are just words.

You still think in dichotomies instead of continuums. You are talking about "truth" and "lies".

In the game of navigating uncertainty we talk about degrees of certainty. Unlikely, less likely, more likely, highly likely.

Actionable certainty happens PRECISELY when you silence your own, inner skeptic. When you are not uncertain you don't need to speak, just act.
[/quote]

i've found the truth and it's irrefutable by either logic or science, the only two ways of obtaining justifiable certainty. I need not defend my position. If you want to learn, listen. If you don't.. <shrug>
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:13 pm i've found the truth and it's irrefutable by either logic or science, the only two ways of obtaining justifiable certainty.
You and everybody else who navigated out of the rat-maze of Philosophy. You re-discovered pragmatism.

The "wall of bullshit" is Philosophy. The purpose of philosophy is to give you bullshit irrespective of what you say.
It's a no-win game. It's Kobayashi Maru

You only win that game when you choose to quit playing it.
Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:13 pm I need not defend my position.
Yet here you are. Defending it.
Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:13 pm If you want to learn, listen. If you don't.. <shrug>
Those who can (act) do (act).

Those who can't - teach.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

>You and everybody else who navigated out of the rat-maze of Philosophy. You re-discovered pragmatism.

Philosophy is the glue that hold logic and science together and makes it useful.

>The "wall of bullshit" is Philosophy. The purpose of philosophy is to give you bullshit irrespective of what you say.
It's a no-win game. It's [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru]Kobayashi Maru[/url]

That's philosophy as typically practiced in modern society, sure. To much emphasis on the questions and all this bullshit about humility.

>You only win that game when you choose to quit playing it.

To win the game is to have found the truth.

>Yet here you are. Defending it.

I don't defend it, it needs no defense, it's the truth. I merely explain it, with a laissez faire attitude and a smirk.

>Those who can (act) do (act).
>Those who can't - teach.

I concur.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:00 pm >You and everybody else who navigated out of the rat-maze of Philosophy. You re-discovered pragmatism.

Philosophy is the glue that hold logic and science together and makes it useful.
That's impossible, given Philosophy's inability to contemplate its own utility.
Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:00 pm To win the game is to have found the truth.

I don't defend it, it needs no defense, it's the truth. I merely explain it, with a laissez faire attitude and a smirk.
Truth is insufficient for utility. At best, it's only one of the inputs in decision-making.
Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:00 pm I concur.
So you want to merely talk about the practical application, not demonstrate it?

Where's the utility in that?!?
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

>>Philosophy is the glue that hold logic and science together and makes it useful.

>That's impossible, given Philosophy's inability to contemplate its own utility.

That may be academic philosophy where they can only see the inside of the box. Why would you imagine that represents philosophy as a whole?

>Truth is insufficient for utility. At best, it's only one of the inputs in decision-making.

It's not sufficient but it is necessary and calling it "only one input" completely disregards it's actual worth. If you must start with only one thing, the utility of Truth surpasses all others combined, because with it all else may, at least potentially, be obtained. Without it, success is arbitrary, regardless of your aim.

Not understanding the Ultimate value of Truth makes literally anything else you say suspicious at best.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm That may be academic philosophy where they can only see the inside of the box. Why would you imagine that represents philosophy as a whole?
Because I've seen no Philosopher (academic or otherwise) attempt to address it.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm It's not sufficient but it is necessary and calling it "only one input" completely disregards it's actual worth. If you must start with only one thing, the utility of Truth surpasses all others combined, because with it all else may, at least potentially, be obtained. Without it, success is arbitrary, regardless of your aim.
If that's the way you choose to frame it then I am afraid "Truth" is not even necessary.

Arbitrary success is still success. Even if it's pure luck. And if it's success based on lies/falsehood - all the worse for "Truth".

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm Not understanding the Ultimate value of Truth makes literally anything else you say suspicious at best.
Claiming that "Truth has Ultimate Value" without demonstrating what that value actually is makes you a snake-oil salesman.

At the very least it demonstrates that you don't understand as much as you claim to.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503139 time=1616164047 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503138 time=1616162603 user_id=15238]
That may be academic philosophy where they can only see the inside of the box. Why would you imagine that represents philosophy as a whole?
[/quote]
Because I've seen no Philosopher (academic or otherwise) attempt to address it.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503138 time=1616162603 user_id=15238]
It's not sufficient but it is necessary and calling it "only one input" completely disregards it's actual worth. If you must start with only one thing, the utility of Truth surpasses all others combined, because with it all else may, at least potentially, be obtained. Without it, success is arbitrary, regardless of your aim.
[/quote]
If that's the way you choose to frame it then I am afraid "Truth" is not even necessary.

Arbitrary success is still success. Even if it's pure luck. And if it's success based on lies/falsehood - all the worse for "Truth".

[quote=Advocate post_id=503138 time=1616162603 user_id=15238]
Not understanding the Ultimate value of Truth makes literally anything else you say suspicious at best.
[/quote]
Claiming that "Truth has Ultimate Value" without demonstrating what that value actually is makes you a snake-oil salesman.

At the very least it demonstrates that you don't understand as much as you claim to.
[/quote]

In this one post you've said Truth is secondary to framing, luck is better than agency, Truth is unnecessary, denegrated the value of Truth generally, attempted to require the invalid criteria of exhaustive completeness in two different ways. Is it any wonder no one cares to prove anything to you?

If you don't value truth, YOU are arbitrary, and as philosophical progression, indeed all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, rests on the pillar of Truth, you're not even a philosopher. Your epistemology leads nowhere, and nowhere is where we began, not where we want to end up. I mean us true philosophers of course, the Truth seekers, and the Truth finders, neither of which can hold your opinions and also progress.

On a more positive note, where's the thread about philosophy as glue? I'll straighten it out for you.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm In this one post you've said Truth is secondary to framing, luck is better than agency, Truth is unnecessary, denegrated the value of Truth generally, attempted to require the invalid criteria of exhaustive completeness in two different ways.
I have said no such thing. I have pointed out that given your own framing Truth is not necessary for success.

Truth may be nice for improving your odds of success, sure! But the statement "truth is necessary" is NOT TRUE in your framing.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm Is it any wonder no one cares to prove anything to you?
What a peculiar thing to say. I have never (not even once) insisted that anybody "prove" anything to me.

Quite the opposite. I have stated that making people "prove" stuff is the equivalent to making people jump as high as you tell them to.
It's a perverse dynamic and I want no part of it.

This is not kindergarten - grown ups don't make each other prove stuff. We record our methodology/experiments/findings and show them to others. You do with them as you please.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm If you don't value truth, YOU are arbitrary, and as philosophical progression, indeed all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, rests on the pillar of Truth.
What a stupid thing to say. I didn't say I don't value truth. I am pointing out that IF truth is not necessary, then the things which are necessary are necessarily more important!
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm you're not even a philosopher.
That's not even a secret. I've been saying it from the day I joined this forum. I NOT a philosopher. I am a scientist.

Philosophy is bullshit.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm Your epistemology leads nowhere, and nowhere is where we began, not where we want to end up.
You have me confused for a Philosopher. Science/probability theory IS epistemology. It's a framework for managing uncertainty.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm I mean us true philosophers of course, the Truth seekers, and the Truth finders, neither of which can hold your opinions and also progress.
You, true philosophers keep seeking/finding the Truth we scientists invent.
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:45 pm On a more positive note, where's the thread about philosophy as glue? I'll straighten it out for you.
Point me to it. So I can tell you why Science is the foundation of Philosophy.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503157 time=1616169821 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
In this one post you've said Truth is secondary to framing, luck is better than agency, Truth is unnecessary, denegrated the value of Truth generally, attempted to require the invalid criteria of exhaustive completeness in two different ways.
[/quote]
I have said no such thing. I have pointed out that given [color=#FF0000]your own framing[/color] Truth is not necessary for success.

Truth may be nice for improving your odds of success, sure! But the statement "truth is necessary" is NOT TRUE [color=#FF0000]in your framing.[/color]

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
Is it any wonder no one cares to prove anything to you?
[/quote]
What a peculiar thing to say. I have never (not even once) insisted that anybody "prove" anything to me.

Quite the opposite. I have stated that making people "prove" stuff is the equivalent to making people jump as high as you tell them to.
It's a perverse dynamic and I want no part of it.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
If you don't value truth, YOU are arbitrary, and as philosophical progression, indeed all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, rests on the pillar of Truth.
[/quote]
What a stupid thing to say. I didn't say I don't value truth. I am pointing out that IF truth is not necessary, then the things which are necessary are necessarily more important!

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
you're not even a philosopher.
[/quote]
That's not even a secret. I've been saying it from the day I joined this forum. I NOT a philosopher. I am a scientist.

Philosophy is bullshit.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
Your epistemology leads nowhere, and nowhere is where we began, not where we want to end up.
[/quote]
You have me confused for a Philosopher. Science/probability theory IS epistemology. It's a framework for managing uncertainty.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
I mean us true philosophers of course, the Truth seekers, and the Truth finders, neither of which can hold your opinions and also progress.
[/quote]
You, true philosophers keep seeking/finding the Truth we scientists invent.

[quote=Advocate post_id=503141 time=1616165123 user_id=15238]
On a more positive note, where's the thread about philosophy as glue? I'll straighten it out for you.
[/quote]
Point me to it. So I can tell you why Science is the foundation of Philosophy.
[/quote]

Truth is not necessary for being successful by luck. That is not the project of knowledge and you are being disingenuous at best.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:06 pm Truth is not necessary for being successful by luck. That is not the project of knowledge and you are being disingenuous at best.
Improving luck is precisely the purpose of scientific/predictive models! They are instruments for prediction.
The project of knowledge is the project of epistemologists. I am one of those. I am a scientist.

You are just a philosopher. All you have is words, not deeds.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503160 time=1616170029 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503159 time=1616169962 user_id=15238]
Truth is not necessary for being successful by luck. That is not the project of knowledge and you are being disingenuous at best.
[/quote]
Improving luck is precisely the purpose of scientific/predictive models! They are instruments for prediction.
The project of knowledge is the project of epistemologists. I am one of those. I am a scientist.

You are just a philosopher. All you have is words, not deeds.
[/quote]

If you understood epistemology you would know there are two ways of producing knowledge. There is science, that which is replicably measurable, and there is logic, that which is necessarily accepted. Philosophy encompasses both. I am just a philosopher and i say to you, sit down, and know your place.
Skepdick
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:36 pm If you understood epistemology you would know there are two ways of producing knowledge. There is science, that which is replicably measurable, and there is logic, that which is necessarily accepted.

Philosophy encompasses both. I am just a philosopher and i say to you, sit down, and know your place.
Philosophy has no claim on neither. Know your place indeed.

Logic is Computer Science. You accept the logic that other people invented.
Advocate
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Re: Infinity as Change

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=503173 time=1616173161 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=503167 time=1616171774 user_id=15238]
If you understood epistemology you would know there are two ways of producing knowledge. There is science, that which is replicably measurable, and there is logic, that which is necessarily accepted.

Philosophy encompasses both. I am just a philosopher and i say to you, sit down, and know your place.
[/quote]
Philosophy has no claim on neither. Know your place indeed.

Logic is Computer Science. You accept the logic that other people invented.
[/quote]

You're way out of your depth right now, but i'm willing to teach if you're willing to learn. Your framework is wrong. You cannot progress.
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