Was Marx Right

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:24 pm The human collective soul or essence is dual natured. Its lower parts arise from the earth while its higher parts descend from above causing the contradictions we all experience. Plato describes our situation in the chariot allegory. As of now, our lower parts are dominant so don't realize we are in Plato's cave.

Becoming human is the process of remembering (anamnesis) our higher origin.
I don't buy any sort of "higher"/"lower" distinction. I also don't know how literal you are about "souls," but I don't buy that there literally is anything like a soul, either. As for "essences," on my view the "essence" of any type term, F, is simply what some individual requires, via their personal concept of F, to name some particular, x, an F.

I'm an atheist and a physicalist (a "materialist" if you like).
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:54 pm
So which is it? Does our consciousness determine our existence or does the quality of our existence determine our consciousness?

If Marx is right mankind is the Great Beast which must be conditioned by society with the goal of producing utopia. If Plato and the essence of Christianity are right, Man can evolve to become consciously human rather than the reacting creature called the Great Beast which inhabits Plato's Cave.

Who is closer to the truth: Marx or Plato?
As an idealist, Plato was looking for eternal essences. He was dead wrong.

As a materialist that departed from Hegelian dialectics, Marx's vision is one where social existence determines man's consciousness, but social existence is not something passive, exterior to his being, so at the same time, through that very social practice (conceived by man himself), he actively creates his being in history. Even though man directs this process, he's alienated from it and cannot conceive himself as the director of those actions, things appear to him as if they just happened.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:34 am Why doesn't our species remember the past?
We do. But selectively.

Many of us pretend not to "remember" the things we don't want to "remember." And that's why we end up making the same basic mistakes again and again...like Socialism. If we were willing to face the facts of what Socialism has been, done and caused, we would have to abandon it.

So we are selective in that memory. We forget the well-over-a-hundred-million people already betrayed and murdered. And preposterously, we start to imagine that if WE had been in charge of it ( presumably instead of all those "naive" and "misguided" Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Zimbabweans, Albanians, Cambodians, and all of them) then WE would have gotten it right. :shock:

That seems hard even to believe, when you see it put that way. But it's the truth. We're once again "romancing" Socialism, as if she were going finally to play nice this time.

After all, we're such "nice" people -- what could go wrong? :shock:
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Nick_A »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:45 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:24 pm The human collective soul or essence is dual natured. Its lower parts arise from the earth while its higher parts descend from above causing the contradictions we all experience. Plato describes our situation in the chariot allegory. As of now, our lower parts are dominant so don't realize we are in Plato's cave.

Becoming human is the process of remembering (anamnesis) our higher origin.
I don't buy any sort of "higher"/"lower" distinction. I also don't know how literal you are about "souls," but I don't buy that there literally is anything like a soul, either. As for "essences," on my view the "essence" of any type term, F, is simply what some individual requires, via their personal concept of F, to name some particular, x, an F.

I'm an atheist and a physicalist (a "materialist" if you like).
Does this mean that you don't believe in the great chain of being or that you are unaware of what "being" is at least theoretically?
The scala naturae, also known as the great chain of being, places humans at the top of a hierarchy of complexity, intelligence, and value. Furthermore, intrinsic to this scheme is the idea that there is a qualitative difference between humans and all other animals.
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:41 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:24 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:39 pm

Awareness of our source? What do you have in mind there?
The human collective soul or essence is dual natured. Its lower parts arise from the earth while its higher parts descend from above causing the contradictions we all experience. Plato describes our situation in the chariot allegory. As of now, our lower parts are dominant so don't realize we are in Plato's cave.

Becoming human is the process of remembering (anamnesis) our higher origin.
Nothing can have as its destination anything other than its origin. The contrary idea, the idea of progress, is poison. ~ Simone Weil.
For Marx, progress is the futile attempt to create evolution for human being and confuses progress with materialism. For Plato, Simone Weil, and the Christianity I know, progress is not adaptation. It is consciously evolving in the direction of the Source of humanity.
Christianity has absolutely nothing to offer here.
And you last sentence is either confused or meaningless hyperbole.
The whole purpose of Christianity theoretically is to enable the old Man to become the New Man Through the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Awakening to reality and freedom from the darkness of the world or cave life has everything to do with it.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:25 pm Does this mean that you don't believe in the great chain of being or that you are unaware of what "being" is at least theoretically?
The scala naturae, also known as the great chain of being, places humans at the top of a hierarchy of complexity, intelligence, and value. Furthermore, intrinsic to this scheme is the idea that there is a qualitative difference between humans and all other animals.
I don't believe in "the great chain of being."
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:35 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:34 am Why doesn't our species remember the past?
We do. But selectively.

Many of us pretend not to "remember" the things we don't want to "remember." And that's why we end up making the same basic mistakes again and again...like Socialism. If we were willing to face the facts of what Socialism has been, done and caused, we would have to abandon it.

So we are selective in that memory. We forget the well-over-a-hundred-million people already betrayed and murdered. And preposterously, we start to imagine that if WE had been in charge of it ( presumably instead of all those "naive" and "misguided" Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Zimbabweans, Albanians, Cambodians, and all of them) then WE would have gotten it right. :shock:

That seems hard even to believe, when you see it put that way. But it's the truth. We're once again "romancing" Socialism, as if she were going finally to play nice this time.

After all, we're such "nice" people -- what could go wrong? :shock:
Do you believe that water seeks its own level? Society itself is a creature of reaction reacting to external influences while lacking consciousness necessary for choice.. the futility of the goals of socialism are normal for the fallen being of Man. It is the nature of its being. Without the awakening help of the Spirit nothing can change and everything repeats. The leopard cannot change its spots.
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Nick_A »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:07 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:54 pm
So which is it? Does our consciousness determine our existence or does the quality of our existence determine our consciousness?

If Marx is right mankind is the Great Beast which must be conditioned by society with the goal of producing utopia. If Plato and the essence of Christianity are right, Man can evolve to become consciously human rather than the reacting creature called the Great Beast which inhabits Plato's Cave.

Who is closer to the truth: Marx or Plato?
As an idealist, Plato was looking for eternal essences. He was dead wrong.

Obviously you don't believe in the forms described by Plato

As a materialist that departed from Hegelian dialectics, Marx's vision is one where social existence determines man's consciousness, but social existence is not something passive, exterior to his being, so at the same time, through that very social practice (conceived by man himself), he actively creates his being in history. Even though man directs this process, he's alienated from it and cannot conceive himself as the director of those actions, things appear to him as if they just happened.

But suppose Man doesn't direct the process and create his being in history? Instead it just happens like life in the jungle happens in accordance with universal laws. You are assuming consciouness and freedom of choice where I don't believe it exists.
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:41 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:24 pm

The human collective soul or essence is dual natured. Its lower parts arise from the earth while its higher parts descend from above causing the contradictions we all experience. Plato describes our situation in the chariot allegory. As of now, our lower parts are dominant so don't realize we are in Plato's cave.

Becoming human is the process of remembering (anamnesis) our higher origin.



For Marx, progress is the futile attempt to create evolution for human being and confuses progress with materialism. For Plato, Simone Weil, and the Christianity I know, progress is not adaptation. It is consciously evolving in the direction of the Source of humanity.
Christianity has absolutely nothing to offer here.
And you last sentence is either confused or meaningless hyperbole.
The whole purpose of Christianity theoretically is to enable the old Man to become the New Man Through the resurrection.
EXACTLY,
Completely irrelevant.
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:56 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:34 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:41 pm
Christianity has absolutely nothing to offer here.
And you last sentence is either confused or meaningless hyperbole.
The whole purpose of Christianity theoretically is to enable the old Man to become the New Man Through the resurrection.
EXACTLY,
Completely irrelevant.
It is irrelevant for Marx but essential for the process of leaving the cave and for Man to become human.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:44 pm The leopard cannot change its spots.
Yeah. But the "leopard" never admits to itself that it is a "leopard." It's hard for human beings to admit to themselves what's in a human being. We'd all like to imagine that the answer is "sunshine and light." But sunshine and light don't kill people.

Marxism certainly does.
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:25 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:44 pm The leopard cannot change its spots.
Yeah. But the "leopard" never admits to itself that it is a "leopard." It's hard for human beings to admit to themselves what's in a human being. We'd all like to imagine that the answer is "sunshine and light." But sunshine and light don't kill people.

Marxism certainly does.
And how many people were killed by name of Cursed?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am And how many people were killed by name of Cursed?
Marx? Well over one hundred million in the last century alone.

Nothing else comes close to that body count...by orders of magnitude.
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Re: Was Marx Right

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:12 am
bahman wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:55 am And how many people were killed by name of Cursed?
Marx? Well over one hundred million in the last century alone.

Nothing else comes close to that body count...by orders of magnitude.
The number doesn't count. Killing is apparently is not in Cristian's way of thinking as far as it goes with Jesus teaching "love your enemy".
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Re: Was Marx Right

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:25 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:44 pm The leopard cannot change its spots.
Yeah. But the "leopard" never admits to itself that it is a "leopard." It's hard for human beings to admit to themselves what's in a human being. We'd all like to imagine that the answer is "sunshine and light." But sunshine and light don't kill people.

Marxism certainly does.
That is one of those topics that cannot be discussed. It is too insulting to admit what we are. Can followers of Marxism admit the futility of its beliefs because of the ignorance of what we are? Jesus pointed this out in Matthew 23 and the world must react to it as it did.

Who can admit that they are dominated by worldly prestige and appearance instead of admitting what we are? Yet doing so is why society cannot change
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
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