The Death of Free Will

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MustaphaTheMond
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The Death of Free Will

Post by MustaphaTheMond »

I have just published an essay putting the final nail in the coffin of free will over on Malady:

https://philosophical-malady.blogspot.c ... -free.html

In it I have attempted to describe the "standard argument" against free will and interrogate the salient evidence from neuroscience and physics. I would be interested to hear peoples' views/responses.

(Apologies if posting links is not allowed, I can reproduce the essay here in its entirety but it is 5000 words long)
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henry quirk
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by henry quirk »

if free will truly isn't then my stubborn belief in it is as determined as every-thing and -one

that is: if you're right, then I have no choice in the matter...I believe in free will (libertarian agent causation), believe I am a free will (a causal agent), and that's beyond my or your control

robotic you wrote your piece cuz that's simply how the causal chain unfolded

robotic me rejects your piece cuz that's simply how the causal chain unfolded

neither of us can take any credit or be burdened by any blame

'nuff said
KLewchuk
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by KLewchuk »

MustaphaTheMond wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:55 pm I have just published an essay putting the final nail in the coffin of free will over on Malady:

https://philosophical-malady.blogspot.c ... -free.html

In it I have attempted to describe the "standard argument" against free will and interrogate the salient evidence from neuroscience and physics. I would be interested to hear peoples' views/responses.

(Apologies if posting links is not allowed, I can reproduce the essay here in its entirety but it is 5000 words long)
I think the issue is thus:

If one asks why "truth" is important (i.e. Frankfurt), you will encounter the pragmatic response. It tends to very useful, one has trouble successfully carrying out ones plans without regard to truth. But what if there is a conflict between what is good and what is true? Some strands of Buddhism say, go with what is good.

So, what if it is "true" that there is no free will but consequences are ultimately negative. I think there is room for debate on the matter. An IAI debate on this matter had a panelist decry, "screw the metaphysics" (i.e. we need to ignore truth because we are better wallowing in ignorance on the matter).

Perhaps that is where better discussion lies; what does society look like if we assume free will is an illusion. Does it change much? If so how?
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henry quirk
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by henry quirk »

what does society look like if we assume free will is an illusion?

if free will is fiction, who or what is there to assume anything?

it seems to me that I consider things, that I direct myself in that consideration of things, but if my thinkin', my reasonin', is just determined process, then I truly assume nuthin', conclude nuthin'...I do nuthin more than a calculator does as it mechanically adds 1 to 1 to arrive at 2
Nick_A
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Nick_A »

MustaphaTheMond wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:55 pm I have just published an essay putting the final nail in the coffin of free will over on Malady:

https://philosophical-malady.blogspot.c ... -free.html

In it I have attempted to describe the "standard argument" against free will and interrogate the salient evidence from neuroscience and physics. I would be interested to hear peoples' views/responses.

(Apologies if posting links is not allowed, I can reproduce the essay here in its entirety but it is 5000 words long)
Hi Mustapha

Do you recognize a difference between REACTING to desire and the conscious ACTION of free will? A dog is a creature of reaction. Its movements are reactions to its type and conditioning.

Can a human being become consciously capable of free will or must it remain as creature of reaction like a dog?
"God...does not constrain the will. Rather, he sets it free, so that it may choose him, that is to say, freedom. The spirit of man may not will otherwise than what God wills, but that is no lack of freedom. It is true freedom itself." Meister Eckhart
Walker
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:57 am
Can a human being become consciously capable of free will or must it remain as creature of reaction like a dog?
Hello.

Although it may seem rude to interrupt, I must say that humans react like humans, and dogs react like dogs.

Humans react to thoughts.
Reaction to thoughts is called, free will.

Stimulus and response is more complex in humans than dogs, however at this very moment machines are gathering and ordering data into broad strokes for the marketers, whose costly decisions are based on predictions of human "choices," predictions more accurate than random chance ...

... much like you predict what your dog will do, which you must do because you are aware of the value of your carpeting, and if you don't give a hoot about living in dog waste then that's also choiceless because who would choose to live in dog waste?
Walker
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Walker »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:28 pm neither of us can take any credit or be burdened by any blame

'nuff said
I see that as a non sequitur.

When people say that life sucks, that's one of the reasons why. Folks get blamed for what they must do. Sucks. Ask any soldier who returned from Viet Nam.

Just yesterday I saw a woman go sailing right through the stop sign on the corner. I watched closely. She wasn't watching the road, she was staring at her lap. I figure there was a phone down there. I mean, her head was angled downward so she didn't even have peripheral vision. She could have killed a kid, not something she would likely choose to do.

Driving while phone watching, or lap watching, is a must-do activity for those who do it, and they are to blame for it, although quite a few drivers have the attitude that if you're not caught it's not illegal.
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henry quirk
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by henry quirk »

Walker wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:37 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:28 pm neither of us can take any credit or be burdened by any blame

'nuff said
I see that as a non sequitur.

When people say that life sucks, that's one of the reasons why. Folks get blamed for what they must do. Sucks. Ask any soldier who returned from Viet Nam.

Just yesterday I saw a woman go sailing right through the stop sign on the corner. I watched closely. She wasn't watching the road, she was staring at her lap. I figure there was a phone down there. I mean, her head was angled downward so she didn't even have peripheral vision. She could have killed a kid, not something she would likely choose to do.

Driving while phone watching, or lap watching, is a must-do activity for those who do it, and they are to blame for it, although quite a few drivers have the attitude that if you're not caught it's not illegal.
if free will is fiction..

the woman sailed thru the stop cuz that's just how the causal chain unfolded; if she was fiddlin' with the phone or checkin' her makeup or havin' a seizure or sleepin', it's all the same: dominos fallin' into dominos

She could have killed a kid, not something she would likely choose to do.

if free will is fiction: she chooses nuthin'
Walker
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Walker »

Conventional wisdom sees choice is the effect of free will.

This line of reasoning sees choice as the effect of confusion.

“Choice, it seems to me, is an act of confusion. When I'm bewildered, uncertain, confused, then I choose; and I say to myself, "I choose out of my freedom; I am free to choose". But is not choice the outcome of uncertainty? Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1966/1 ... ublic-talk
Nick_A
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Nick_A »

Walker
Although it may seem rude to interrupt, I must say that humans react like humans, and dogs react like dogs.

Humans react to thoughts.
Reaction to thoughts is called, free will.
Is conscious free will or a conscious ACTION just a more complex expression of a mechanical REACTION?

Mindfulness is a conscious ACTION and designed to consciously observe our mechanical REACTIONS. Animal REACTIONS initiate from the earth as does all animal life, Conscious ACTIONS have a more conscious origin human beings are capable of expressing. Conscious free will is only possible for conscious beings while mechanical beings REACT to desire. Mechanical beings are the norm for creatures of REACTION. Humanity is only capable of brief moments of conscious ACTION. The rest of the time is spent in mechanical REACTIONS. The question is really if a person can learn to spend more time in daily life, in conscious action, in order to observe or know thyself rather than judge ourselves, and does it benefit us?
Nick_A
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:10 pm Conventional wisdom sees choice is the effect of free will.

This line of reasoning sees choice as the effect of confusion.

“Choice, it seems to me, is an act of confusion. When I'm bewildered, uncertain, confused, then I choose; and I say to myself, "I choose out of my freedom; I am free to choose". But is not choice the outcome of uncertainty? Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1966/1 ... ublic-talk
“When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door.” ― Simone Weil

Contradiction produces confusion. Is it better to consciously experience it so as to find the door or better to avoid it in favor of an acceptable lie?
Impenitent
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Impenitent »

if there is no freedom of choice, there can be no moral consequence

-Imp
Walker
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Walker »

Impenitent wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:48 am if there is no freedom of choice, there can be no moral consequence

-Imp
Those who do wrong know they do wrong even if it's condoned, although they don’t always know why they have to, or had to. That’s why kids get more slack than adults when it comes to crime. They knowingly do wrong but they're still in a non-autonomous stage of development.
Walker
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:41 pmThe question is really if a person can learn to spend more time in daily life, in conscious action, in order to observe or know thyself rather than judge ourselves, and does it benefit us?
Absolutely.
jayjacobus
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Re: The Death of Free Will

Post by jayjacobus »

In determinism the physical universe moves step by step. Each step comes from a previous state and the previous state is part of an ever progressing causal chain.

The brain also functions step by step but the mind often leaps from one line of thought to another. The leap is causally unexplainable. It could have a cause but that cause is unknowable. To say that it comes from a causal chain is not true. To say that it comes from a causal leap is unknown.

So believe what you want but don't say you have definite proof.

I believe I have free will. Why? That's what I want to believe.
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