The Death of Free Will

[Walker]

All the stuff you do is for peace of mind, which ensues when hunger pain is abated, and the bills are paid.

Nope.

Yep.

[henry quirk]

A good example is abortion.

Women get abortions for peace-of-mind.

Ego's actions don't always have intended consequences.

In simple language, tell me again what peace of mind is...I think I'm not understandin' cuz, it seems to me, most abortions have nuthin' to do with peace of mind.

[henry quirk]

All the stuff you do is for peace of mind, which ensues when hunger pain is abated, and the bills are paid.

Nope.

Yep.

Nope.

[Walker]

You may want to catch your breath with another sigh, henry, but peace-of-mind after a divorce is a real, physical effect induced by achieving peace of mind after metaphorically burning down the household.



*

Peace-of-mind is the motive force for movement.

Just sit still, and don't move. When you eventually do move it will be to find peace-of-mind that indicates things have been set right, and that will determine the nature of the movement, whether it be scratching the nose, or anything else ... such as a pregnancy test.

[henry quirk]

You may want to catch your breath with another sigh, henry, but peace-of-mind after a divorce is a real, physical effect induced by achieving peace of mind after metaphorically burning down the household.



*

Peace-of-mind is the motive force for movement.

Just sit still, and don't move. When you eventually do move it will be to find peace-of-mind that indicates things have been set right, and that will determine the nature of the movement, whether it be scratching the nose, or anything else ... such as a pregnancy test.

Still not gettin' it...quick thread review sez it's some kinda zennish hoopla...no thanks...I'm out.

Mannie, let me know when we get back to free will.

Elvis has left the building.

[Immanuel Can]

... peace-of-mind pursuit, getting things back to right again, is the root motive force for humans, with applicable animal variants.

Do you think there IS an "animal variant"? I don't know of any animal that says to itself, "Things around here aren't right, and they should be different." It seems to me that animals are pretty unphilosophical about everything that happens to them.

Peace-of-mind is only an issue for us, as humans, because we can imagine worlds different -- plausibly better -- than the world we have. We are restless because, as we say, "This is not how things should be," or "I could make this better," or "Why is this happening?"

I do not know of any animal that can perform that cognitive move, nor have any evidence of that. Do you?

- The logical error being committed in missing the association of the material world with peace-of-mind is the error of ego that holds peace-of-mind to be apart from physicality.

If that's "a logical error," then what it argues for is quietism and/or stoicism -- some ideology that just lets things be what they are, and never asks the sorts of questions or has the sorts of thoughts I've listed above. If we are to be satisfied with mere "physicality," then we are, indeed beasts. And our lack of "peace-of-mind" becomes incomprehensible: why should we, among all animals, lack peace-of-mind?

- This is because peace of mind, which is bliss (satchitananda … being, consciousness, bliss) is not conditioned by the body, however the body is the vehicle to clearing the debris that obscures the obvious.

Oh. Gnosticism. Dualism, with contempt of "the physical" and exaltation of "consciousness" or "spirit." Body as a prison, spirit as trapped. Yes?

Well, that's certainly an answer that's been tried. But it raises far more problems than it solves. For one thing, is it not totally negative, in the sense that it understands things like "peace-of-mind" as consisting only in the cessation of suffering (samsara), and not in the postive achievement of something good, like joy, or fulfillment, or justice? It seems it can only offer the peace of the grave...or Nirvana, which, as I'm sure you know, is mere "soul extinction," or "end of consciousness," not some paradise or positive hope.

After a talk about happiness, a Hindu once came up to me and asked, "Don't you think that ending suffering is good? And don't you think that all suffering is caused by desire? So if we end desire, will we not have happiness?"

I said to him, "Good question. Now can I ask you one? Is the definition of 'happiness' the cessation of suffering, or does it have to be something positive?"

He said, "That's a good question. Can I ask my priest?"

I said, "Sure." But he never got back to me. (I don't know why he didn't: I saw him again many times.)

So that's one important question about negative "peace." But a second problem is that those sorts of dualistic views require some sort of explanation for how things got the way they are, and that's not at all easy to make plausible on a Gnostic, Hindu or Buddhist account. One ends up having to posit some kind of malevolent, evil or just plain incompetent element as existing in the Eternal. And then one gets into additional problems, because that requires either two "gods" at least, or one very badly flawed "force" behind the universe.

Another is what it does to the concept "evil." But let that be for now.

If those problems are not addressed, there's certainly going to be no "peace-of-mind" in such systems. There will only be the death of consciousness, at best. Is that enough for "peace"?

[Immanuel Can]

A good example is abortion.

Women get abortions for peace-of-mind.

Ego's actions don't always have intended consequences.

In simple language, tell me again what peace of mind is...I think I'm not understandin' cuz, it seems to me, most abortions have nuthin' to do with peace of mind.

That's for sure. I've known women who had them, and they result in only two things, it seems. One is callousness, indifference, hardness, contempt. The other is lasting misery and second-guessing. Neither strikes me as characteristic of a mind at peace.

[Walker]

What can be easier than sitting absolutely still, and then observing the precise moment of change, which is movement.

Therein lies the solution to must vs. choice.


Me too, off to another adventure.
The last one was joining with others to pause and pay respects to the sudden departure of a great man, something we all had to do.

Who knows what revelations today's next adventure may bring.


Have a good one, always appreciated your * style.


* plural

[Walker]

A good example is abortion.

Women get abortions for peace-of-mind.

Ego's actions don't always have intended consequences.

In simple language, tell me again what peace of mind is...I think I'm not understandin' cuz, it seems to me, most abortions have nuthin' to do with peace of mind.

That's for sure. I've known women who had them, and they result in only two things, it seems. One is callousness, indifference, hardness, contempt. The other is lasting misery and second-guessing. Neither strikes me as characteristic of a mind at peace.

I know. You tell them, but they just don't listen.

It's the lead a horse to water thing.

Such are the limitations of telling, i.e., book learning, sharing insights, and experience.

That's 'cause everyone thinks they're different, if not special, thus not all the rules apply.

[Immanuel Can]

That's 'cause everyone thinks they're different, if not special, thus not all the rules apply.

There's an axiom one can carve on the mantlepiece!

[Walker]

... the body ...

The body is the temple, the open and singular sacred space (the space being non-dual awareness of awareness) which is naturally filled by two (two being dualistic contemplation of ... )

Again, gracias for your detailed attention and insights, fuel for lighting the way from the darkness of ignorance that causes suffering for all the world.

[Immanuel Can]

Again, gracias for your detailed attention and insights, fuel for lighting the way from the darkness of ignorance that causes suffering for all the world.

Hmmm...

Well what about the fact that motivations are not merely physical? Do you have anything to say about that?

[Walker]

Sure. The motive force affects motion, and motion defines change.

[Walker]

To elaborate the oneness of peace-of-mind and physicality linked by motive force, a borrowed topic of another thread applies to this thread … Concepts.

There are two kinds of concepts in the world.

There are valid concepts that are based on inevitable causation.
- Inevitable causation is what must happen moment-to-moment according to the effect of natural laws upon the dualistic interactions that occur amongst all the elements that comprise a situation.
- An individual’s need, generated by the natural movement towards peace-of-mind as defined by each individual, is a catalytic element in any situation, in the sense that while what you really are is unconditional, human presence effects change via the perpetual peace-of-mind pursuit.
- Pursuing peace-of-mind is the meaning and purpose of life, for everyone (buried the lede to satisfy the enquiry).
- The particulars of the pursuit are as varied as all the human actions by all the humans.

There are also invalid concepts.
- Invalid concepts are based on ignorance of elements that comprise a situation, and the interaction of those elements.

Implication of the two kinds of concepts in the world:
- Valid concepts result in peace.
- Invalid concepts result in, and are caused by, ignorance.
- Ignorance has many results, one of which is “choosing.”
- Choice is based on not knowing which action to take, i.e., ignorance.
- When one knows what one must do, one is not choosing.

What causes an invalid concept?
- Self-cherishing is the root of all problems.
- When an invalid concept resulting in conflict causes problems, the cause is self-cherishing.
- Self-cherishing is what obscures a valid concept from awareness.
- Self-cherishing is caused by attachment to temporal identity, and mistaking that as permanent.

Therefore, valid concepts are (based on) objective assessments of all things considered, and all things include self-cherishing, i.e., self-interest.

[Walker]

Do you think there IS an "animal variant"? I don't know of any animal that says to itself, "Things around here aren't right, and they should be different."

They say to themselves in animalese, "Hungry!"

After they kill and eat, or eat something alive while killing, they say in animalese, "Ahhh. The world is right again. I don't have to do a damn thing now. Time for a nap." And the critter falls over with no more movement. (Translation: peace-of-mind)

Soon enough, something disturbs the animal's peace-of-mind, and it begins to move towards fixing that disturbance.