Is Western Civilization Declining?

[uwot]

It employs a lot of people, but they don't get to see the product of their labour. They're on an assembly line...

Don't you think that some people might find that more productive and/or dignified than a dole line?

...most of what they produce is crap destined, after a long ocean-killing journey and a brief useful life, for the land-killing North American garbage dumps.

That's pretty much how many people see themselves.

Isn't that good in itself?

It would be, if they were independent artisans, making durable, beautiful, original object, like their long-ago ancestors.

Well yes, the world would be far richer if everyone was making lovely stuff all the time. How do you encourage others to be creative or even artistic? Personally, I think increasing people's self-esteem is a bloody good start.

[Gary Childress]

Deleted. Not worth it.

[Gary Childress]

There's nothing wrong with describing your overall thrust as fatalism, you are describing it yourself as "not panicking. Just pointing out the obvious" and as that is in reference to an abusive authoritarian regime taking over the world that makes you quite the Cassandra really. If you are really too petty to survive being called Chicken Little in that context, then consider it withdrawn.

What good is panicking going to do? What do you suggest I do, lie about what I think is happening and/or run around like a chicken with his head cut off?

[FlashDangerpants]

There's nothing wrong with describing your overall thrust as fatalism, you are describing it yourself as "not panicking. Just pointing out the obvious" and as that is in reference to an abusive authoritarian regime taking over the world that makes you quite the Cassandra really. If you are really too petty to survive being called Chicken Little in that context, then consider it withdrawn.

What good is panicking going to do? What do you suggest I do, lie about what I think is happening and/or run around like a chicken with his head cut off?

I would suggest that you have nothing to panic about, so you should stop. If you care about the content of what you have written then your concerns can be answered.

I've addressed your debt thing, and your food self-sufficiency thing, and your manufacturing thing. All you've done in response is manufacture reasons to take silly shit personally.

[Gary Childress]

There's nothing wrong with describing your overall thrust as fatalism, you are describing it yourself as "not panicking. Just pointing out the obvious" and as that is in reference to an abusive authoritarian regime taking over the world that makes you quite the Cassandra really. If you are really too petty to survive being called Chicken Little in that context, then consider it withdrawn.

What good is panicking going to do? What do you suggest I do, lie about what I think is happening and/or run around like a chicken with his head cut off?

I would suggest that you have nothing to panic about, so you should stop. If you care about the content of what you have written then your concerns can be answered.

Fair enough. The rest of your post is like a rather gratuitous end zone celebration at the expense of your interlocutor, but whatever.

[Skip]

Don't you think that some people might find that [the assembly line] more productive and/or dignified than a dole line?

Maybe. It's not like they had a choice. The 'communist' government took away their lands, culture, independence and basic human rights. Anyway, dignity's got nothing to do with seeing the product of one's labour, which is what you asked the first time around.

Well yes, the world would be far richer if everyone was making lovely stuff all the time.

No argument. Still no innovation, though.

How do you encourage others to be creative or even artistic?

How would I do that? Not by oppressing them, intimidating them into silence, forcing them to live in carcinogenic cities, making unnecessary crap for their gullible western counterparts, who demand the cheap goods and then turn around and blame the Chinese people for everything from the national debt their own government ran up with idiotic wars, through unemployment, caused by their own bosses moving operation overseas, to the Covid pandemic against which they refuse to take reasonable precautions.

Personally, I think increasing people's self-esteem is a bloody good start.

That would be nice. It sure as hell doesn't sound like China - or modern industry, or wage slavery, or capitalism, for that matter.

[Hermit Philosopher]

China seems to have a lot going for it these days. The nation that once had to rely on imports to feed its population is now largely self-sufficient. Their science exploits are catching up with those of the West. They have the largest radio telescope in the world. Their cities are bustling with modern sky scrappers and architecture. They apparently haven't suffered as much under the pandemic as we have.

My question is, does this prove that the Chinese government and their way of life are superior to our hodge podge relative anarchy in the West? Have democracy, freedom, and diversity proven inferior to control, authoritarianism, and cultural homogeneity? Will the world be taking orders from our Chinese overlords one of these days?

I think it is more likely that, as it solidifies its position as our new global financial centre, China will change. Because democracy, freedom, diversity, etc, all benefit capitalism and they will now be the leaders of the capitalist world.

According to Hegel, financial centres, historically, have always moved west. I find it funny that west of USA is China.

Hegel thought that any previous financial centre (in our example here: the US) would always be hit by a pretty harsh identity-crisis when and as they got “left behind”.
And that they would have to adjust to their new, lesser role and influence over others in the future.

In a way, you’re probably not entirely wrong; we will likely see a synthesis in cultural values and ways (of business and values). The important thing to remember is that, though the results will be different, the process itself is nothing new. Eventually, we shall all find ways to accustom to this change too.

Humbly
Hermit

[Janoah]

their way of life are superior

indeed, manufacturing, weapons and even the economy are secondary, and the primary thing that wins by and large is a more adequate worldview system.
And vice versa, if it wins, then there is an adequate worldview grain in it.
And the prisoners of their defective worldview really decline.

[Dubious]

The reason it's declining is as straight-forward as can be due to our own stupidity, gullibility and greed. It would be a real kick in the head for the West to witness that the methodologies of the Chinese government our likely to checkmate our own more liberal institutions in the long run. This is not due to Chinese accomplishment but to the on-going renunciation of the West itself. It's the old saying "A house divided"; in this case that house is all of Western civilization. Are the Chinese in the future going to be as generous with "their" intellectual property as the West has been or at least allowed even though it may not always have been voluntary?

[Immanuel Can]

Yes.

But it's not just "Western civilization."

[Gary Childress]

Sorry to be a "chicken little", but apparently having a repressive, authoritarian, communist regime and ethnically homogenous society aren't stopping China from outsmarting and outpacing the West. They're making bold strides in space exploration and the potential militarization of space. Meanwhile, I wonder if Western democracies will be able to prevail for much longer. Apparently, communism works better than capitalism when it comes to world domination.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ho ... d=msedgdhp

[Skip]

Apparently, communism works better than capitalism when it comes to world domination.

Communism would never seek world - or even local - domination. What you've got hold of there is dictatorship sticking a false label on itself - as it usually does. Of course dictatorships can show impressive short-term results. Then they overreach (predictably! invariably!), piss off too many people, get their heads cut off, their empire falls apart and leaves a big mess for somebody else to sort out. If a few little islands of relative unimportance* escape the carnage, they can make productive use of whatever technological and cultural assets the empire left over.
(*See England c. 500 AD)